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Guys I purchased an old razor a couple days ago and have been honing it up. The first time i've gotten a blade to pass the HHT not that that means it's shave ready or not but i finally feel like i'm getting close. I went from 1-3-8k then did 20 laps coticule light slurry and then 10 laps plain water. My question of the day is how much will the chromium oxide improve the edge and is it needed?
thats upto you. strop it and shave with it, if you like the way it feels your done cr-ox wont hurt it though unless your stropping is bad. wait is your co-ox on pasted strop or balsa?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't chromium oxide slightly round the apex of the edge to increase smoothness, not sharpness?Quote:
Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER
Adding smoothness is mainly what honing on water on a coticule does (with very minimal sharpening on most coticules). I would suggest doing a few more strokes on the coticule (say around 30, at least).
I've always viewed CrOx as a means of refreshing an edge and extending life between honings. There's no obvious reason why it should round an edge - although the preference seems to be for paddle rather than hanging strops to maintain a better technique.
One of the benefits of using a Coticule hone is smoothness - using CrOx afterwards is likely to make the razor feel more harsh - therefore you are no longer shaving with a Coticule edge.
If properly honed and stropped, I feel you should not need to use chrox. Maybe after a few shaves as a refresh, but not after fresh honing with a natural stone. I was under the impression that the reason for using naturals was for the smoothness they provide, I feel like the pasted strop would nullify, or at least slightly mask, that smoothness. The edges I get off synthetic stones sometimes benefit from a few strokes on a pasted strop. I use mostly naturals now, or the gokumyo 20k, so I haven't needed to use any pastes recently.
It depends on your finisher, the coticule and technique. You may be going backwards in your progression with your finishers. Coticules are one of the most difficult stones to learn and vary most in finishing of the naturals.
Look at your edge, before you go to the coticule or better yet, look at the edge with magnification after the 8k and make sure you have a good edge with no chips, then strop on chrome oxide, eliminate the coticule all together. It is not the Chrome Oxide that can convex a bevel, it is pressure combined with an abrasive strop. The smoothness comes from reducing the stria by polishing the bevel and straightening the edge.
Chrome Oxide will add a bit of keenness but more importantly it will smooth an edge and give a smoother shave, but first you must have a complete edge.
Hair test are notoriously un-reliable, so you may or may not have a complete edge. With your current setup, if you have an issue you will not know if it is the strop, Chrome Oxide, coticule, 8K or bevel set.
So first learn to hone on synthetics, once you have mastered honing then, experiment with naturals. Ironically much of the problems of coticules with novice honers is the bevel set…
I pretty much never use it, but because a razor that's been finished on crox will cause me more problems with weepers than one finished on a natural with a linen. If I only had some of the more mediocre coticules, I'd probably be inclined to use it on the first go around with setting a new edge, but as time goes on, if I have a mediocre stone, I like to use it like a barber hone instead (sparingly and not working the edge off).
I have no reference for what my edges are like compared to other peoples, but going without them and finishing on a natural with a true linen does give me less razorburn and fewer weepers. it's probably a bit duller than crox would be, I presume the sharpness of the crox edge is what causes me weepers, and I think it's more personal than anything else (not having perfect skin everywhere, that is), as a buddy of mine uses sub 0.1 micron iron ox as his daily strop (he's vegan) and when I tried that, the razor was so sharp that it pretty much shaved off every skin imperfection I've ever had (I have a fairly light touch with a razor, too, because of my propensity for razorburn and already imperfect skin).
I've only had one "good" coticule (out of 5) that could hang with some of the more consistent finishers when removing a prior edge and establishing a new one. With a coticule, you're taking something with large particles and trying to tease an edge out of it, sometimes you get great results with certain razors and sometimes you don't. Light touch is necessary.
Short answer being if you are finishing your edge with the coticule right now and not getting the keenness you want, then step it up with the crox. If you are close, I'd focus on improvement from the hone instead.
I don't use crox because I find most mixtures are or become inconsistent, couple that with the application on whatever surface you're using, that too can be inconsistent.
And mainly it seems defeating to use these fine stones, and then not use the final edge produced by the stones. My Escher or Nani 12k puts a very nice smooth edge on the blade, it may be somewhat harsh for a couple of shaves, but then mellows just to the point I like it.
Also, the person who usually hone's my razors, also doesn't use crox, even to refresh a blade, just quickly going to a stone is much better, now of course, this is just my preference, and as usual, it's a personal thing...YMMV.
I'd say pay attention to what Marty (Euclid440) had to say above. If you are sure you have a proper edge off your stones, you can use Crox (many folks do) for a few laps before stropping your blade up to see if you like the shaving edge it produces.
As a contrarian, I never use CROX...anymore...because Personally I've found that what works best for me (ALWAYS!) no matter what stone I use as the finisher is a lead bar or pipe rubbed on a linen strop. I discovered this quite by accident over a year and a half ago and have been using this technique ever since. My edges are always very smooth and outstanding!
If you would like to learn more about the history of this, see this thread with lots of good historical information about using lead or pewter to smooth out or 'Cool' a blades edge:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/strop...-pictures.html
I always use CrOx after honing, it works great for me. It's part of my usual progression 1k->4k->8k->12k->CrOx->Linen/Leather
Crox worked well for me after a synthetic stone progression. After finishing on a coticule however you will likely make the edge more agressive and lose the coticule feel. I would suggest you spend more time finishing your edge with ultra light stokes on your coticule, and test your edge with a thick stand of hair to mesure your progress before you strop.
Okay I just didn't want to be going backwards in my progression because after I stropped on chrox my razor didn't pass the HHT at all. If only there was a way to tell if you're doing it right...
1 finish on your coticule
2 strop on both linen and leather, minimum 50 laps.
Forget the HHT for just this once.
3 Shave with it. If it pulling and tugging , then and only then CrOx.
Remove the mutiple variables and test your results.
If you do CrOx you should redo stropping before razor to face.
You should FEEL a difference on your face.
Glad to see your still on the path. report back your findings please.
I agree with ultrasound in that the HHT can be a tough one. Is it passing the HHT because the edge is micro chipped and tattered? Or is it passing because you nailed it, it's smooth, sharp and polished?
The shave test.Quote:
Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER
I use crox sparingly, most people go overboard and then have problems. 4-5 laps on a short paddle strop and then a good stripping on canvas/linen and then on leather.
+1 to nun2sharp.
Trust us use your face for the test. Not your whole face.WTG try it you arent going to hurt yourself. Feel for the tug or lack there of.
I look for that and closeness. If I can visibly still see hair it isn't sharp enough for me shave ready means I have to feel the hair going against the grain.Quote:
Originally Posted by ultrasoundguy2003
Never have used CrOX. Probably never will. Just don't see the need.
Seems of late the Zulu Grey has been getting the most use. After putting the initial bevel and edge on (Naniwa SS 1k, 5k, 8k) or in some instances a coticule, either the Zulu or a Naniwa SS 12k is all I have needed to keep the quiver in excellent order. The Zulu edge is noticeably more face-friendly and does my quarter hollow, half hollow, and heavier grind full hollow razors very nicely; but the 12k can really make my "more hollow than most" blades truly sing....
I think a fun test on using chromium oxide after honing is to start off with only one stroke on the chromium oxide and then strop and test shave. Then two strokes and so on. That will really tell you what you have going on with it's use. It will also tell you, your sweet spot for using the chromium oxide. I do the same with .5 diamond spray on felt and CBN.
Have fun.
Thanks Lynn. I'll give that a try next time I hone a blade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
anyone reading this: listen to this guy. in fact, click in his name and read his posts. he is a true master. do that with sixguns and bob, jeje... you already knew that...
no matter how good you are at honing, a little crox will improve the edge of any stone, synth or natural. the thing is, there are many sizes of crox, many different strops, and many different variables that we are not mentioning. for example: how tough is your skin? or, how tough is your hair? even then, a denim or sailcloth strop with .5 crox will improve anything. there are many ways to ĻimproveĻ on that. the most important question is if you need it. i go all the way up to .1 cbn in a paper strop, as instructed by euclid440. but thats me.
try to find out what works for you. discard the rest.