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Can two razors that are basically the same other than the fact that one is carbon steel and the other is stainless steel be made to shave the same?
I get nicks and cuts on the stainless that I don't get on the carbon and am left wondering what happened.
I am guessing they can. Use both types blades and find little difference. If they are both shaving smoothly for you could it be that the stainless one is a tad bit sharper to account for the nicks and cuts?
Bob
Could you provide more information on what the honing process for each was and what the razors are?
I use Shapton stonesQuote:
Originally Posted by holli4pirating
1000 Grit:
40 circles counterclockwise with pressure
40 circles clockwise with pressure
10-15 X strokes without pressure
thumb test
4000 Grit:
40 circles each direction with pressure
40 circles each direction without pressure
10 X strokes without pressure
test arm hair
8000 Grit:
15 X strokes without pressure
test arm hair
see if edge takes shine
16000 Grit:
10 X strokes no pressure
look for high polish look
test arm hair
.50 micron spray on cotton strop:
100 strokes
.25 micron spray on cotton strop:
100 strokes
That's basically it. I just don't know why my Dovo Best Quality 5/8 carbon steel gives me a near perfect shave and my Henckels Friodur 5/8 stainless steel gives me a good shave but with nicks and cuts. Both razors feel the same when I move my thumb across the edge.
have you checked the stainless edge with magnification? What shape is the bevel and edge in?
That sounds to me like a lot of stropping on the spray. What kind of spray are you using (I ask because I personally find stopping on diamond spray to leave an edge that is harsher than I like, but I find chrome ox can be very smoothing for an edge, and I have no experience with other stopping compounds)? Have you tried the Friodur with less or no stropping on the spray? Extra stopping on plain leather?
CaliforniaCajun,
My stainless razors (Dovo EnVogue, Henckels Friodur and Wusthof) are among my best shavers.
I hone them no differently than my carbon steel razors (I use a 1, 3, 8, 12 Naniwa SuperStone sequence).
Have fun :)
Best regards
Russ
I doubt you will ever get them to feel "the same" as all quality razors seem to have their own personality, but you can get them both to be damn fine shavers. Stainless's abrasion resistance takes a bit more time at the stones, but once you get them there you will learn to really like them as that abrasion resistance works not only against the stones, works well on the face too!. As mentioned above, magnification is really your friend to ensure you are not starting out with a chippy bevel. Take your time, give the razor it's needed "love" on the stones and it will reward you with a individual personality that I'm sure you will come to appreciate when it comes to mowing down whiskers.
Many may disagree with me but I have found Friodur steel extremely hard to set a bevel. Once you do it is crazy sharp but I have moved on THINKING I have set it when I really haven't. Cryogenic silver steel takes me much more work to set the bevel.
I'll probably re-set the bevel on one, even though there is stickiness when I move my thumb laterally across the edge.
I tried reading the library section about bevels but I can't stand reading anything that sounds complicated. I went to college but practical information has to be Sandbox I or forget it.
I found a video of Lynn Abrams setting a bevel with a Shapton 1000 and it sounds doable. I watched it several times and will try it. I will keep the blade 30 degrees with the heel in front while on the surface because when I don't the blade isn't as sharp for me.
We'll see what happens. I am a notoriously slow learner.
My Friodurs shave well, although each one can feel a little different, even the ones that have the same model number and should be identical.
I wonder whether you may be over honing on the high grit hones and diamond pasted strop. Some report that too many strokes on synthetic high grit hones will microchip the edge leading to a very harsh shave. If the bevel is set well at the 8K level, a lot of strokes should not be needed on aggressive high grit finishing hones. It is important to know when to stop.
I hone on a 1K King, 6K King, and then transition to an 8K Norton. The Kings were originally acquired for my kitchen knives. After the 8K hone, I finish on a TM 4 sided paddle strop pasted with 3, 1, and 0.5 micron diamonds before stropping on unpasted linen and latigo leather.
I try only 5 - 10 strokes on the pasted strops and then about 40 linen/60 Latigo on my unpasted hanging strop. If a shave test tells me that I am not where I want to be, I repeat on the 8K Norton, pasted strops, and unpasted hanging strop. This usually gets me a good shave. I often find that the edge will become more gentle over a few shave/stropping cycles before reaching a stable plateau of keenness/comfort for many weeks of shaving.
I do not have a line-up of expensive synthetic and natural hones to research what could work even better, but this has been working well enough for me on both stainless and carbon steel razors. However, I am tempted to acquire and try a 20K Gokumyo hone to see whether I can reach a higher degree of comfort, but I cannot yet get by its $200++ price.
Worst case scenario would be to send the stainless to a pro for a new bevel and set up. If it is a good blade, it should then shave well comfortably and be easy to strop and refresh well after that.
If the results are not up to snuff something is wrong. I am not going to do anything rash. But I made a promise that I wouldn't straight shave unless I could attend to my own blades. Otherwise it defeats the purpose of finding a viable alternative to the horrible experience I had with cartridge razors.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheajohnw
In my house, this is an extreme no no. If shaving at a high angle dulls a blade, this has got to be worse. YMMVQuote:
Originally Posted by CaliforniaCajun
I think shaving at a high angle is worse for your face than the blade, and TPT is, IMO, a good test at all levels if you know what you are doing. I wouldn't describe it as "moving the thumb across the edge," but I assumed that was just a matter of word choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesman7
to add to the comment about SS being hard and therefore requiring more honing time. Isn't carbon steel generally "softer" and easier to put an edge on than Stainless?
If my memory is correct, then that would make using the same honing routine for both steels a recipe for 50% success at best. I would use a minimum circle/stroke benchmark on a bevel setting stone for any type of razor, but only as a reference for when to start checking if the bevel is fully set. Then continue on as each individual razor requires.
To my limited understanding and reading the pyramid honing guide. Stainless steel only requires more polishing strokes. It is the same to sharpen yet takes a few more to get it in tip top shape. This is only what I read. My SS blade takes more polishing strokes but sharpens just as fast as my carbon. (Disclaimer I do no use the pyramid, just drew a conclusion from reading it.) Those blades you've got aren't the same manufacturer are they? I didn't think so. Could be geometry differences between them. Hard to tell. Just my 2 cents. Take it or leave it haha :gl:
The stainless on older razors is probably actually a softer spec, but the carbides that are in it are much harder than any plain carbon and iron mix.Quote:
Originally Posted by TwistedOak
On new razors, I don't think a lot of the carbon razors themselves are really that hard, so it's hard to say.
When you use tools, and you get to high speed steels and other highly alloyed abrasion resistant steels, when they are equal hardness, the carbides make the high speed steels or hard stainless type steels much harder to abrade on a stone.
I would imagine that the friodurs are probably 440C or some reasonable approximation of it, because that would be a good inexpensive stainless that hardens and tempers well in the 58-60 range of hardness. They are cryo treating the razors to disperse the carbides and make them much more uniform and integrated into the steel matrix, so you might never notice that something is even stainless in terms of sharpenability if it's a click or two softer and cryo treated.
Cheap stainless will have large carbides, and non cryo stuff that is loaded with carbides (like D2) will often fail with tiny chips early, and then retain whatever edge is left after that for a very long time.
Anyway, it's my supposition after running into these steels with woodworking that if they were to do anything to make sure that stainless was sharpenable on natural stones, it would be to cryo treat it and then make it a tick or two softer on the C hardness scale so that it retains sharpenability. 62 hardness 440C or steels like D2 are not particularly friendly to natural stones (D2 has a lot of chromium, IIRC).
If you are using synthetics, you can disregard most of this unless the steel you're using (if you get a custom razor) has a bunch of vanadium carbides in it. If it does, even aluminum oxide or alundum type stones (like pretty much all of the synthetics we use are made of) are softer than those carbides.
There's a nice chart at the bottom of this page with knoop hardness of various things.
https://www.tedpella.com/Material-Sc...ng_Systems.htm
Carburized steel is around 800, aluminum oxide is around 2100, chromium carbides (like you'd have in 440C) at 1735. When you get to nutty stuff like vanadium carbides, it's 2660 on that chart (there are a lot of knives made now with vanadium carbides in them in droves, which I have no clue why anyone would want that).
Anyway, when you're using an abrasive like quartz or silicon dioxide or novaculite that's barely harder than carburized steel, then it won't cut chromium carbides. Thus they have to be dispersed or you'll have nodules of unsharpenable material. You can help that along by making the overall steel a little softer after the carbides have been evenly dispersed.