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I finally have successfully reset a bevel and honed to completion with a 12k.
I I have a prima klang arriving with a factory edge. What would you start with? 4k? 8k? Would I need to set a bevel with 1k (doubtful but I really don't know).
what would your process be to make a factory edge shave ready?
i normally do it with an 8000 or lately a very old scotch rock oilstone pretty fine,dont fancy anything corser,would be quicker i suppose,unless your doing it for a living and have a hundred to do i dont see the point,i dont know if i have a dodgy Prima Klang but my one isnt extra hollow nor singing good shaver though ,these Dovos take twice as long as Bokers to get a working bevel and keep giving you false positive thinking your there to find your not, good luck.
In the few factory edges I have successfully completed (I am a noob), I started on the Norton 4k and moved up quickly moved to 8k then 12k. On a reasonably stubborn TI, I had to move down to the 1k then back up through the progression. The 4k will at least make easily distinguishable striations on the blade. In my experience, the 8k too closely resembles a lot of factory edges.
I think the most appropriate thing to start with is a loupe. After a visual inspection of the edge you should be able to figure out what the next step is. Clean off any oil and give it a squint.
This is exactly where to start, a decision on what stone to start with cannot be an assumption it has to be determined by what you are presented with.Quote:
Originally Posted by RezDog
Assuming that an edge will take less work because it's a factory edge is a false assumption.
I just honed the hardest razor that I have ever tackled and it was a brand new TI with a piece of bad steel in the edge just down from the toe.
This edge was straight from the maker and was just awful, no question about going back to bevel and even then the bad steel didn't show up for some time after I started the re-set.
I have had several new razors recently with factory edges that needed complete bevel re-sets and then refinement, and some of these were very expensive razors.
So don't assume anything, inspect and test first then proceed based on the sound findings, your edges will be better for it.
Personally I would start with re setting the bevel. Everything is based on the bevel being correct so instead of just polishing whats there I would start from scracth and know that your foundation is right
You could just start with a test shave initially to see how bad or good the factory edge really is and go from there.
Bob
Thank For the advice all. Used the loupe and the bevel didn't look too bad so I used the 8k for 40 laps, 12k for 30 followed by 30 on .5 and .25 diamond spray strops followed by 60 on plain linen then 75 on leather. Scary sharp and gave a great shave. Although I do I have a fairly long but superficial cut on the left side. The extra hollow requires more precision for sure.
Any time I get a Dovo factory edge I assume, through experience with their edges, that it's not shave ready and I go to my Chosera 1k and set a true bevel and hone the razor.
No reason to try and massage their factory edge. Just start from scratch and make it right. :)
You'll have to decide how you'll approach the same.
Regards,
Howard :)
I recently reset a bevel after a lite bread-knifing in 40 circles and 63 laps in about 3 minutes on a Norton 4K. Yes, it was an experiment, I usually spend a bit more time setting a bevel and use a 1K, but not too much more time.
Now, the bevels were already flat and the bevel angle already set, though I don’t know if it had been honed with tape, really it did not matter.
With a new factory honed razor, the bevel was set with the spine off the stone to preserve the spine, so the angle will be off a bit. What you want to check is, that you are honing all the way to the edge, because while the bevels are flat, you will have to reset the bevel angle with the spine on the stone. You will begin by honing the top of the bevel and grind the bevel flat to get to the edge.
The heavy lifting in honing is flattening the bevels and getting bread-knife edges to meet, as so much steel has to be removed. But once flat and close to the correct angle a 4, 8 or even 12k synthetic can do it fairly easily. A 4k is very aggressive.
The one thing you want to be sure of with a factory edge, is that you are honing all the way to the new edge, a touch of ink and some magnification, will quickly tell you.
Watch the dovo video on youtube of how the edges are made at the factory as well as how many razors they produce, then you will understand the nature of what you are getting and why.
As i see it there seems to be some confusion over sharpening and setting the bevel,to me a bevel set with a 8000 or equivalant hone is sharp by default,and to say there is a seperation between a bevel set and sharpening
is false,also to say the leather strop doesnt further sharpen again is false,i have a japanese razor i use in my rotation which is superb where the URA side has never been honed ,and has only been honed the one side but had the same 10 flax 50 leather the same as the others and there is a beautiful but fine bevel on the URA side,showing what the flax/leather does no abrasive paste or anything used
“i normally do it with an 8000 or lately a very old scotch rock oilstone pretty fine,dont fancy anything corser,would be quicker i suppose,unless your doing it for a living and have a hundred to do i dont see the point”
Actually you are correct, for most, one or two hones is plenty to maintain a razor. Many did for hundreds of years, with one stone and later with a two sided barber hone. I did, for years, with a small translucent, linen and leather.
Which is why I have done these test with high grit synthetic stones, 4,8 &12K. All are capable of setting a bevel and fairly quickly and the 8 &12K can produce a very shavable edge, as we well know.
For most a good 8 or 12K and linen and leather is all one would need. Those of us that do much more honing, a 1K progression makes it go much quicker.
With a factory edge I wil usually look at it thu th
E microscope and then sa " What the hell, why not! " and set my own bevel and then go through the grits until nirvana happens.
First off, I would appreciate sentences.Quote:
Originally Posted by adductum
Regarding honing--no, there is no distinct separation between bevel setting and sharpening. They are a progression. However, it is ludicrous to suggest bevel setting with an 8k hone to be a viable option. Since you suggest that a strop can sharpen an edge, then you might as well try setting a bevel with a strop. Personally, I don't recommend it.
Bevel setting simply is the first phase of honing. It is most easily accomplished with a hone more coarse than an 8k. The edge does not begin to get sharp until the bevels meet in a V shape and it is the meeting of those bevels that defines the bevel set. Sharpening is merely the refining of the apex of the V of the edge.
To the OP...I like the progression you performed. My personal approach is to use the least aggressive method first.
If I was a new guy again I would have used your progression. In your case, on this razor, it worked. On other razors I would suggest starting with the 4K.
Any razor that is not honed by a pro (Lynn, gssixgun, etc.) needs to have the bevel reset, be it NOS, factory, eBay special, whatever. I have had a few NOS factory edges, none were shave ready, and I reset the bevel first thing. A 1k hone is best for bevel setting, it can be done on a 4k if the edge doesn't have any damage, it just takes a little long. Setting a bevel with an 8k?...................life's too short!
Sorry Utopian my explanation/description of my Iwasaki was correct it hasnt been honed on the URA side.It just hi lighted the abrasive/friction
of a leather/flax strop.Viable or not i have set a working bevel on all but 2 of my razors 16 in total with an 8000 stone took a while though maybe, didnt record the time, 2x hours each i think far less.I totally disagree that bevel setting simply the first stage of honing,to me it is the only stage of honing.Anyhow i didnt mean to imply by my explanation of the Iwasaki that a bevel could be set with a leather/flax strop,as by sharpening the Iwasaki the one side a perfect V is formed with i suppose a burr on the URA side ,anyhow the leather/flax has created a small but perfect bevel,and razor shaves beautifully,proof is in the eating i suppose
Hmm. I brought a Taylors eye witness from an antique shop on sat, no visible hone wear. Must be 60/70 years old. 10 laps on naniwa specialty 10k, 15 laps on gokumyo 20k and she shaves like a champ.Quote:
Originally Posted by DoughBoy68
Had NOS razors that ive just stropped and were good to go and a few that needed a bevel set. Luck of the draw I guess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by randydance062449
Thanks. The advice I've gotten here is obviously paying off!
A caveat,a partial expaination of my apparant unique success in setting the bevel on my razors with a 8000 NANIMAWA super stone.I always kept the surface clean removing the black marks that form with a small piece of coticule,and when setting the bevel ran with some coticule slurry,when setting i always reverse hone in a circular motion with two hands the index fingers favouring either side never the centre.I have recently found out that a coticule with thick slurry can have a grit of as low as 1000/2000 grit and will remove the fine edge on a razor honing in the right direction.
I reset the bevels on my rotation razors all 8 took less than 20 minutes with a coticule first time ive honed with it,finished gently in the correct direction without slurry just water lovely edge
I understand a coticule without slurry just water can equal a 16000 grit stone.
Sorry must have been more than{less than 20 min}no time at all far less than 1 hr
Do what works, 10 -15 years ago, nobody use a “1k progression” an without all the “rules”, and still scraped the hair from their faces with very little if any blood loss…
Sorry have to apologise to the forum the coticule bevel reset had to be done again this time with the naniwa 8000 super stone,just wasnt there thought i was,showing off i suppose
Yep! Got lucky a time or two myself needing to only strop a get a great shave but that doesn't happen very often. I look at all razors I buy as needing the bevel set but I do inspect them first, if by some lucky chance the bevel is good, all the better.....a little luck goes a long way in this sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by markbignosekelly
I reset every 6 shaves ideally, do all even if they are still shaving ok,they all have moved from the perfect bevel,never a problem normally unless i rush it ,simple to come back doesnt take long,first time for a while getting careless
You start with bevel work every six shaves? Each to his own, I guess. I do a touch up maybe every 10 or so shaves with a razor, a touch up consisting of 30-50 X-strokes on a coticule with water.Quote:
Originally Posted by adductum
With a side note that I have plenty of razors, in four years of honing I have had to redo a bevel less than a handful of times.
Just my opinion, others may vary- I have bought a lot of NOS razors with a "factory edge" I found it does not pay to mess with them by starting with a 4k or 8k, just go back to a good 1k and work up. I like to start with a Naniwa Pro 1K, 4k,8k snow white, 12K and I finish with an Apache Strata
The confusion persists,i do not differentiate between touching up and reestablishing the bevel, to me they are one and the same.When i buy any razor new or second hand i establish the bevel which by default when carried out on an 8000 stone creates a sharp edge,so to me sharpening and setting the bevel is one and the same.
One could by bad stropping ,using abrasive paste create a sharp edge with a rounded bevel but as i do not this does not apply to me,i am super careful when stropping to keep the spine and edge on the leather with the same minimum pressure.
I have a microscope for observing the edge but choose not to use it,as said previously i establish or reestablish or sharpen by reverse hone with two index fingers clock wise up and back anti clockwise uo and back which constitutes one pass when a sharp edge is formed i very gently hone in the correct direction often the razor will become quite blunt, this shows me i am almost there,usually one pass reverse honing does it ,only by honing in the correct direction will it show if you are successful usually" im right on the money" a phrase i use when the edge is super sharp.When you sharpen in the correct direction it takes off any false edge created by reverse honing.I am not nor choose to be an expert, just very successful at sharpening my own razors but i have always been good at putting very sharp edges on Knives tools etc
"When i buy any razor new or second hand i establish the bevel which by default when carried out on an 8000 stone creates a sharp edge,so to me sharpening and setting the bevel is one and the same."
Really?? This statement should bring some interesting comments forth
One pass or two for re establishment or touching up, many for establishing on a newly acquired razor,sorry for lack of clarity in the above text
Maybe Cubancigar with his epithet"Really" means he doesnt agree with me or something worse,so be it,cant please everybody ,i am trying to be of some assistance,the starter of this thread was doing well,and considered the thread a help,probably not from me though i expect
Yes - confusion persists. Do I correctly understand from one of your posts above that your use of an 8000 stone means, by default, it is covered with coticule slurry?Quote:
Originally Posted by adductum