A Noob & His Hone.

Got my first hone this week, and I'm totally stoked! Per the advice on this forum, I went with a higher grit stone. A Shapton 12k M5 ceramic, to be exact. Good brand, good price, and should be more than enough for me to get started out on!

Anyway, onto the reason for this thread. I'm attempting to "walk the edge back" on a chipped Tufpug that is otherwise in great shape (if you discount it wearing the clothes of my ERN lol). So the stone is just barely not as wide as my razors are long. I tried the x-stroke, but found it to be uncomfortable to attempt. Also, keeping the blade in even contact with the hone was not easy during this.

So I have taken to having the blade on the hone at an angle for my stroke. Mostly heel leading, before t I do change it up & go toe leading for a few laps. I do not perform any swooping action. I simply have one end of the blade further down the hone than the other, and do laps straight down the length of the hone.

So, any thoughts? Will this affect my blade negatively? Like an accidental smile?

Attachment 204489
Layed the razor length ways on the stone to get a good shot of the chip.

Notes:
Keeping SWMBO from giving me the stink-eye means this will be my only hone for a while.

I lapped the hone with 320 grit w&d sand paper on a marble tile. Rinsed thoroughly.

I have been soaking the hone 10min before each of the two sessions so far.

One layer of tape.

I switch the tape out and/or rinse off the hone when it starts to look like one is affecting the other.

I have been working the stone wet, with the only slurry being what is whipped up from the blade going across it.

I know nothing about Shaptons since I have Naniwa, but IMO it's going to take a LOT of strokes to get that chip out on a 12k stone.

Ah, yes. That's what I forgot in my notes...

Notes (cont.):
I'm well aware that this will not be quick. Hence why I mentioned this is the only hone I'm gonna be getting for a while.

Due to my lack of experience with honing, I'm attempting to walk the edge back, rather than bread knifing it. That way I can worry less about not being able to set a bevel.

Well, for what I think you paid for the Shapton, you could have had either a Naniwa 3/8k combination, or a Norton 4/8 k combination, either of which would have served you better for what you want to do. Bread knifing is rarely done by most, most of us just go down to the 8 or 3or4k stone to bring an edge back, and you can shave off the 8k's. With a chip like that I might go to a 1 k. But whatever works for you now that you have your one stone (I get it), go for it. I'd suggest Lynn or Glenn's videos on honing from YouTube.

Yes it can be done and should not take too long, but the razor looks to have other issues. The bevel looks very uneven. Post a photo of the razor without tape, both sides.

Just set the bevel on a piece of 800 or 1k Wet & Dry, but first you have to figure out why the bevel is so uneven. It could be your straight stroke and uneven pressure, how many laps do you have on the razor at the time you took the photo.

Also looks like you have something under your tape.

At the time of the above pic, I was just about to start my first session with it. So it has the antique shop edge on it, and 0 strokes. The uneven bevel might be an optical illusion from the light source in the room (you can see the ceiling fan reflection in the water on the hone :) ). I think that is an air bubble under the tape, cause I'm pretty meticulous when starting something new.

Tonight (tomorrow), I will post fresh pics of it, with better light. ...maybe I'll cobble together a light box out of the wife's spare white poster board?:shrug:

It might be a good idea to post a photo without the tape on the spine so members can see the hone wear on the spine.

Bob

Watching........:popcorn:

Well that was tricky! Gonna need to re-read the library section about taking pictures of razors lol. Btw, the hone cost in the neighborhood of $48 with free shipping.

I was more discerning of lighting angle & such, here are bevel pics...

Attachment 204505
Face side, toe.

Attachment 204506
Face, heel.

Attachment 204507
Backside, heel.

Attachment 204508
Back, toe.

Now for the hone wear! This was tricky in it's own right. Mostly because there isn't much hone wear to speak of.

Attachment 204509
Back, toe.

Attachment 204510
Back, heel.

Attachment 204511
Face, toe.

Attachment 204512
Face, heel.

The grind.
Attachment 204513
Would you call that a near-wedge?

Btw, since it was about to be honed, I took the liberty of measuring the blade width with a digital caliper before I started honing at all. It tapers consistently from 0.59" at the toe, to 0.57" at the heel.

I see hone wear

Yup, it was just the photo. The spine looks ok with just some wonky spine wear.

Put 2 layers of tape on it and set the bevel on a piece of 800 or 1k wet and dry cut into 3in strips, wet and stick to a flat glass tile (Lowe’s $6).

Use the 45 degree strokes method to remove the chip, should not take that long. Stop just short of the bottom of the chip.

Then set the bevel on the 1k paper and finish on the 12K.

Actually this kind of repair is where breadknifing excels.

I don’t know what the resistance to breadknifeing is, no matter how you do it, you have to remove the exact same amount of metal to remove the chip.

You are not removing the chip, you are removing all the other steel on the edge to the same level as the bottom of the chip.

Breadknifing is easier and quicker, you can just hone it out but for a new guy, run the risk of burning through the tape and messing up the spine and edge. I’d recommend this, if you had a low grit stone or diamond plate. I have never done it with W&D, so just 45 degree it.

The chip is small and the edge thin, it should go quickly.

Euclid, your thread on 12k chip removal/bevel set in "advanced honing techniques" is what helped me decide to go with a 12k, instead of a 4k/8k combo.

In that thread, you mention & explain Alex Gilmore’s method of honing quite well. After watching a couple of his vids, & re-reading your thread, I'm a bit more comfortable with the idea breadknifing the chip out. I agree with stopping just short of completely removing the chip before bevel set.

Gonna try to duplicate what you did in that thread, though I'm using the M5 ceramic rather than the glass series.

I also noticed that Alex's stroke, in the videos I watched, is like what I was trying to describe for my own stroke. Though, I had was still doing both toward & away strokes. I was considering only toward me strokes, flipping the razor from hand to hand, to keep my eye on the edge at all times... because I'm meticulous like that:borg:!

"If it's worth doing once, it's worth doing right the first time." -My Father.
:gwh:

Crawler, this being your first attempt at honing, and that being an advanced honing technique, this might not be the "doing right the first time approach". My advice would be send it out for restoration if you think the blade is worth it. If you're set on honing it yourself, you'll save a lot of time and frustration by using a hone better suited for bevelsetting as a couple others have mentioned already. Or maybe consider purchasing a shaveready blade and touching it up as needed in the future with your 12k

This is not so much a wrong way to do it as it is a slower, more demanding way. Good luck however you proceed!

Yes, but you have a much larger chip and I have never use a Shapton 12k Ceramic . I know you could do it on a 12k Super Stone, just take a bit more time.

Use the 1k wet and dry or just take your time with the 45 degree stroke.

Worst case you have to send it out, either way the chip has to come out.

If it doesn’t work for you, send it to me, PM me.

Follow euclid's advice, he has helped me tremendously in the past.

check this out:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...ml#post1254386

Get some 1k wet dry. Follow the tutorial in the link. After setting the bevel you can get the rest done on your 12k it will just take some time. Just take your time with your 320 w/d.

Good luck, keep us updated as to your progress.

No advice to give, I am noob at honing as well. I will be intrested to see how this comes out for you.

I took the opportunity to work on this after the wife went to sleep last night. I spent a few meditative hours working that chip. No TV, just my supplies, the rhythmic sounds of stone & steel, and my counting. I'll try to break it down without being too long winded lol.

I opted for "splash & go" with a spray bottle of water this time, rather than soaking the stone for 10 minutes. I already planned on spending a significant amount of time on it, so it would be wet long enough through the night without a soak.

Two layers of tape. Watched some vids on circle strokes, gave that a whirl. Seemed to go okay. Sets of 15 circles on each side. I didn't bother counting the number of sets at any point, it was gonna be a long session. Occasionally, doing a few sets of 10-20 straight strokes (angled to fit the whole blade on the stone) on each side.

The water turned grey frequently, and I was rinsing the stone off almost as frequently. Every time I took it to the sink to rinse off, I also gave it a dozen or two swipes on my homebrew lapping tile.

About the third refresh on the tape, I got tired of wasting so much time fooling with tape & scissors. So I put three layers of tape on the spine, and went to town.

At this point, I also changed my stroke pattern again. I went to half laps, edge facing me, staying on the stone for both back & forth motions, angled with heel leading. 10 on each side. Occasionally, I would do this with the blade straight across the stone to change stria direction.

Did I mention changing the tape got tedious? Cause I just left those 3 layers on for the last almost two hours of the honing session. Still rinsed the stone off frequently. That got tedious too. So I put some water in an empty Tupperware the wife uses for crafts, and started using that to rinse off the hone & blade without going all the way to the sink.

I tried breadknifing on the corner of my hone to work the chip out... gave up on that when the chip didn't go anywhere, and the blade put some pretty good grooves in the stone lol. Tufpug 1. Shapton 0. Maybe I'll revisit that with one of the fine files I picked up for de-pinning?

Finally seemed notice some progress a little after bedtime, so I called it for the night.

Brief followup pics to come ;).

Attachment 204659
Straight down view. Toothpick pointing to the chip.

Attachment 204660
Lower angle view.

Attachment 204661
"Face side" bevel shot.

Attachment 204662
"Back side" bevel shot.

I noticed something during one of the tape changes & accompanying edge inspection. The bevel is shorter in the middle, & longer at the heel and toe on the face side. On the back side, the bevel is shorter at the heel & toe, and longer in the middle. There is corresponding hone wear on the spine from the razor's previous life.

:borg: Logic dictates that this points to a slightly warped blade geometry. :borg:

I made note of this & moved on, because my primary goal is removal of the chip & practice honing. I'll burn that bridge when I get to it :tu

Additional thoughts.

I was surprised at how quickly (relative to the length of this honing session lol) a good crisp edge came back to it after each of the several times I tried breadknifing it. Well, good enough to slice skin on my slightly calloused fingers with no resistance or pressure when a slight slicing motion is applied. I realize there may still be a overhonning/foil edge/not absolutely perfectly set bevel.

I bought this razor and an ERN from the same dealer at an antique mall for $24 +tax TOTAL for both... for the soul purpose of teaching myself honing and restoration.

I bought a Dovo Best Quality 5/8 full hollow, and it just came back from receiving it's free re-honing from Sir Lynn Abrams of SRD. So I've got some practice shaving under my belt, and a great benchmark of an edge to grade myself against :).

I appreciate the offer, Euclid. But seeing as how I bought a couple of razors for the soul intention of possibly screwing the pooch with my DIY skills, it would defeat the purpose and only set me back if I were to send it out.

Yes. I am sometimes stubborn. Having said that, this isn't exactly the same as all those honing posts ("dead blade?") where a noob tries for hours to hone a razor that only needed a refresh on a finisher and keeps :banghead: because the shave is uncomfortable and the bevel isn't set. It takes time (a lot more than expected when noob + 12k is factored in lol) to remove this much metal to work out a chip.

I did try a few (dozen) laps at a higher, more knife like, honing angle in order to expedite metal removal. But I stopped after a few unpleasant harmonics were heard between the stone & steel. Having the structural integrity already weakened by the chip, I didn't want to risk cracking the blade. :shrug:

What is left of the chip looked a whole lot bigger last night on my way to bed. Looking at it today, I'm feeling much better about my progress last night.

I didn't take "hone surface clogging" too seriously. Until I looked back in hindsight. I feel like some of the most progress was made after each time the stone was rinsed off, no matter what stroke was used.

I tried to compensate for the possible warp in the blade by applying pressure to the middle of the blade when honing with the "face side" down, amd pressure towards the heel and toe when honing "back side" down.

Looking forward to your thoughtful responses!

chances are the blade is warped, most are, thats why an x stroke is most often suggested. yours looks slight, chances are you could be developing a frown or be working your way towards one. Keep an eye on it. The 12k is a great hone to practice getting the stroke right as you will be wasdting very little metal. It looks to me like in the last pic that you need to spend a little more time on the heel and toe to "even" it up with the middle assuming its the grind not giving it the appearance of being uneven. A quick look down the edge should tell you if you have a slight warp.

I would use an x stroke on the stamp side and a rolling x on the other, should even it right up.

Looks like good progress, if you use the 45 degree stroke you eliminate the tape all together, until you actually hone it to set the bevel. You don’t even touch the tape until bevel setting.

I would not worry about the bevel being irregular, it’s probably because of the 3 layers of tape, you probably burned through some ta[e and the extra pressure you applied.

Try some of the 45 degree strokes, just don’t use too much pressure and flex the blade, let the stone do the work. Once you get to the bottom of the chip, leaving a little, then hone it with 2 layers of tape. The bevel does not have to be even as long as you get an edge from heel to toe.

Next time use a sheet of 1k sandpaper, it’s a 10min job with a 1k grit.

Don’t use a file unless, it is a 1k diamond file.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crawler

So, any thoughts? Will this affect my blade negatively? Like an accidental smile?

---

You say this as if a smile is a bad thing ? or do you mean a frown ?

I really can't understand why someone would purposely use a 12k hone to remove a chip like that. Such a waste of time & stone.
You may think 2 or 3 hours removing a chip is good honing practice but all it teaches you is to use excessive force & develop poor form.
Sorry to be so blunt but I hate seeing people take one step forward & two steps backward.

What chip? It's gone, now.

My gut said it wasn't quite ready, but close. And that was close enough for a test shave.

Pre-shave pics...
Attachment 205328

Attachment 205329

Attachment 205330

Attachment 205331

Attachment 205332

For the record, this wasn't my first choice for learning how to hone. But there aren't any mentors nearby. There are only a handful of members within a hundred miles of me, and those are all either noobs or inactive or both. So I was left with cautious self-education.

Got the bevel to even out a bit more, thanks to jfk742's suggestion of different strokes for each side. But I'll do a summary of the honing that has taken place since my last post on this thread later. Past my bedtime...

So, the razor shaved. Not well, but it shaved. I was also having slight lather difficulties. It was a tugging Tufpug. ...Like a tee[self censorship]the shower.

Gonna try to keep my A.D.D. in check while I summarize chronologically.

Had another long session working the chip out...
The wife informed me of our plans to go hang out at her friend's house.
My response: "I'd love to, if I can bring my honing stuff :D!"
Her retort: "No! You should be part of the conversation."
Me: "I chime in! Besides, it's not my fault y'all watch & discuss Youtub'ers and 'Real Housewives' & the likes, instead of wet shaving & Anime..."
Her friend didn't care since I wouldn't be making a mess of anything, and viola! A honing session is born! :tu

So I started out with three layers of tape. Heel leading (mostly), edge facing towards me the entire time, moderate pressure on the "high spot" on each respective side. 20 Strokes back and forth, switch hands, repeat. Refreshing tape as needed.

This got the chip down to less than a third of the bevel. At this point, I dropped down to 2 layers of tape, and reduced my pressure slightly. Still had some "heavy lifting" to do, so that's really all that changed.

I also started to practice the more acrobatic strokes, as well as Alex Gilmore's method. There was plenty of chip left (again, factoring in 12k hone), so this was a perfect chance to start working on muscle memory & routine. Some 2/3rds of the sets done at this point were still the heel leading, back and forth kind because those were much quicker than the other strokes which I was still learning.

By the end of this one, I had to either use my loupe, or silhouette the blade between myself and a lamp across the room in order to see the chip.

Marked it with a fine point Sharpy, which sadly came off the next honing session...Attachment 205487

The next day, SWMBO said we were gonna hang out with her friend again. This time, flashing her some "puppy dog eyes" was enough for her to say: "Oh, grab your honing kit & let's go." ...Yippie!

Two layers of tape. Started with angled back and forth's. Switched to the Alex method; rolling-x type for "face side" up, & standard x stroke for "back side" up, with careful & slight pressure on the high spots. Took a little while, but I did see the bevel even out a little more, without adding curves to my straight edge.

When the chip required searching with my loupe just to locate & confirm it's existence, I dropped down to one layer of tape.

I used less and less pressure as I continued.

By this point, it had been more than a week since I last shaved, and my face was getting so blasted itchy, I couldn't stand it anymore!

Went home, wife went to sleep, and I tried putting some finishing touches on this edge. One layer of tape. Only enough pressure to ensure good contact. Rolling-x, or standard X stroke, depending on the side. Tried some light stropping (webbing, then leather [SRD 3"]) before doing two or three more Alex sets.

It was late, I was tired, & my face was itchy. I also didn't want to be told to wear a beardnet at work the next day. So I took my Tufpug for a stroll.

Verdict: still needs some work. It removed my scruff, for the most part, with WTG, XTG, and touch up ATG. No major incidents or bloodletting, but not particularly smooth either. Pretty much what I expected from my novice assessment of the edge.

Uncategorized thoughts.

Took the scales off early on in this endeavor. Made it a little easier to maneuver on the hone, but negatively affected the ergonomics when stropping & shaving.

I definitely rushed the stropping before my shave (in terms of laps, not speed).

The weight of the scales would have helped the shave a slight bit, but oh well.

I noticed a tad bit of microchiping at the edge. As well as an unmet bevel where there is a hint of where the chip used to be.

Fumbled the blade late into the second night at the friend's house. Caused tiny contact damage at the corner of the heel, and almost at the corner of the toe. Quickly honed out to be just unmet bevel. Lesson learned: use some non-slip mat as a work surface cushion!

I very lightly jointed the edge once or twice near the end of the last night of honing, before we headed home. Probably should have spent a little more time on the hone than what I did after that.

Also, I don't have any paste/spray/crox.

Conclusion.
Yes, this took many hours to get it ALMOST completely finished. But that was the intended flight plan from the beginning. I didn't start working this blade on this hone to quickly disappear a chip. I did it to get comfortable with steel and stone. To develop muscle memory. To watch both blade & hone progress and change throughout the journey of this edge. To calibrate methods of inspecting & testing an edge, in person.

Considering the goals I set for my first attempt at honing, I dare say it was a solid success.

.

Looking forward to your thoughtful responses!

REALLY think ya otta put the scales back on.
Before ya hone it.
Its gonna change your memory when you do. JMO

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by outback

REALLY think ya otta put the scales back on.
Before ya hone it.
Its gonna change your memory when you do. JMO

---

They were warped, causing contact with the edge when closed. I found the thought of that over the course of a multi-session honing to be counterproductive.

They were also cracked at the pins. All that handling would have only made it worse.

I realize that will slightly affect the feel of honing later. But if the scales are used for a significant amount of control and/or pressure, isn't that the wrong way to do it?

The biggest difference after taking the scales off was: I could pretty much close my grip on whatever hand they were in. With the scales on, I needed half my hand loose, and the other half trying to control it's half of the blade.

Down the road, razors I deem as "keepers" will have micro fasteners & zinc washers in place of the usual pins. That way, I can break them down & guarantee they are dry after each shave :D.

It does make it nice.
Ive done a few that way.Attachment 205499Attachment 205500

Great story Crawler. Now all of your friends are sure that you are nuts.

I agree with having the scales on when you hone. It effects the balance. If I'm honing a razor sans scales, I tape on a couple whittled down tongue depressors to take their place.

Everyone chooses his way to do things. I don't think there is a wrong way in honing as long as it works for you. It was interesting to read how you can Hone with a 12K stone. I think this is called out of the box thinking and action. :)