Uneven Honing Sharpness

I am hoping for a little guidance, and the good news is that this coming weekend I will have a chance to sit down with a number of expert honers and get some additional clarity, but I wanted to throw this out there for the community at large....just to see what the response may be.

I have what is essentially a NOS Dubl Duck Goldedge. It had a small chip in the toe which came out readily on the 1k Norton. I taped the spine and went through a normal progression. This razor had never seen an edge that I could see, so I took my time with it. At the end of the day, the first third of the blade (toe back) is OK....but not as keen as I would like. The second 2/3 are shave ready by any standard. I really don't want to lay into the metal too much to bring the toe around to shave ready because of the virtually unused state of the blade, and certainly don't want to finish it without tape on the spine. I briefly tried placing a finger on the toe to apply a bit more pressure, as well as rolling strokes, but it just didn't want to get "all the way there." I walked away from it because getting frustrated isn't solving any issues, but I am curious what you folks might think I could do to fix it?

My progression:
1k, 4k, 8k (Nortons), 12k (Naniwa), CrOx/FeOx (Balsa), plain webbing, leather.

Thanks!

-Ted

The final sharpness comes from polishing a perfect apex, the bevel set. You can mess that up along the way and need to address that before moving forward. It is possible but unlikely that you did not get the bevl set to start with, if you hone out a small chip, I would think it was set to start. A loupe is my best friend when honing. I use it to check the edge before I start and during each step in the progression. At times I have found that I have compromised the bevel in a mis-stroke along the way. I think this is the most likely what has happened. Check it carefully with a loupe and you will see where you have gone wrong.

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Originally Posted by RezDog

The final sharpness comes from polishing a perfect apex, the bevel set. You can mess that up along the way and need to address that before moving forward. It is possible but unlikely that you did not get the bevl set to start with, if you hone out a small chip, I would think it was set to start. A loupe is my best friend when honing. I use it to check the edge before I start and during each step in the progression. At times I have found that I have compromised the bevel in a mis-stroke along the way. I think this is the most likely what has happened. Check it carefully with a loupe and you will see where you have gone wrong.

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Will do...I felt pretty good about the bevel with my loupe after the 1k, but to your point, I didn't look again while polishing up the progression. I am going to leave it as-is for the time being, as it will be a good learning point at the Denver GTG this weekend.

It's quite unusual that you are having trouble putting a uniform level of sharpness on the Goldege because they are such a fine and very hollow ground blade they tend to need very little effort to get them honed and dialed in, I'm sorry if this sounds like a stupid question but when you removed the chip you should have treated the entire length of the cutting edge the same way, seems to me you gave to much time and effort on the last third of the blade.

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Originally Posted by celticcrusader

It's quite unusual that you are having trouble putting a uniform level of sharpness on the Goldege because they are such a fine and very hollow ground blade they tend to need very little effort to get them honed and dialed in so very easily, I'm sorry if this sounds like a stupid question but when you removed the chip you should have treated the entire length of the cutting edge the same as so you know that you haven't only concentrated on the last third of the blade.

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I did work then entire edge evenly when I took the chip out to avoid the situation you are describing. Could it be a wee bit off....perhaps but unlikely. I also just wonder if I didn't give it quite enough time since it was a NOS razor with no tangible factory edge (whatever was there had lots of little tiny nicks and whatnot in it).

My guess is that when you honed out the chip at the toe, you created a slight smile and your subsequent honing did not address the smile adequately. Were you using x strokes throughout the honing?

First a photo always helps, in offering advice. Sometimes an obvious problem can be spotted.

So while many feel, a hollow ground blade is easier to hone, pressure can easily become an issue with the flex of a hollow ground blade.

The problem of using pressure to force an edge on to a stone, is you have to apply the same amount of pressure in the same spot, through all the grits, something that is difficult to do.

So, first before you do anything, look at the edge with magnification, (which should always be your first step) and see where the bevels are not meeting, check for pitting. Ducks are notorious for Cell rot and the edge is the first to be eaten or weakened.

As said, the bevel is not set, or no-longer set. If you have a flat bevel, re-set it on the 4k with a rolling x stroke, check it with magnification.

If the bevel is not fully set, it will crumble on you in the later grits or even after the first stropping. You are not alone it is a common new honer problem. The importance of a fully and properly set bevel, cannot be over looked.

Here is a simple, non-destructive and 100 percent accurate, visual test for a set bevel.

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Originally Posted by bluesman7

My guess is that when you honed out the chip at the toe, you created a slight smile and your subsequent honing did not address the smile adequately. Were you using x strokes throughout the honing?

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I use a combination of strokes to try and address issues....but short answer is yes, I was using X strokes, the vast majority of which were heel forward.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

First a photo always helps, in offering advice. Sometimes an obvious problem can be spotted.

So while many feel, a hollow ground blade is easier to hone, pressure can easily become an issue with the flex of a hollow ground blade.

The problem of using pressure to force an edge on to a stone, is you have to apply the same amount of pressure in the same spot, through all the grits, something that is difficult to do.

So, first before you do anything, look at the edge with magnification, (which should always be your first step) and see where the bevels are not meeting, check for pitting. Ducks are notorious for Cell rot and the edge is the first to be eaten or weakened.

As said, the bevel is not set, or no-longer set. If you have a flat bevel, re-set it on the 4k with a rolling x stroke, check it with magnification.

If the bevel is not fully set, it will crumble on you in the later grits or even after the first stropping. You are not alone it is a common new honer problem. The importance of a fully and properly set bevel, cannot be over looked.

Here is a simple, non-destructive and 100 percent accurate, visual test for a set bevel.

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I love that video and have looked at it repeatedly since I began honing a few short months ago. As for call rot, the good news is that is not a problem in this case. The blade was rust free and only had a couple of dark spots which rubbed right off with MAAS.

The problem I am having is I am between worlds....I know just enough to be dangerous now, but really don't have the practical experience to be able to look at this issue objectively and correct it easily. If this were a junk razor, by all means I would hack away at it until I figure it out....but this one was acquired at a very good price relative to the current market and has some value...so me trashing it as a learning experience is not a great idea in this case.

Well, as you said in your OP, your timing on running into this is perfect. Glen has said; "Honing is easy, until it isn't". There is a lot of nuance that is hard to convey in text or even video that is much easier in person.

I took another stab at this one tonight...mostly because I wasn't about to let the razor get the best of me. It worked out very nicely. As it turns out, there is a slight smile that I didn't account for in the least, so the tip's bevel just didn't develop 100% the first time around. I got it all dialed in now! Wicked edge on her now! A bit of advice to beginners like myself, and this has been echoed many a time...sometimes just walking away for a day or two and then taking another stab at it has better results than just hammering away at it over and over again.

Having said all of this....I can't wait until this weekend to learn from some wonderful honers and take a ton of new knowledge home with me!

I've done a few like that, walk away for a day or two then set a great bevel in 15 mins give or take.

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Originally Posted by Denvernoob

I took another stab at this one tonight...mostly because I wasn't about to let the razor get the best of me. It worked out very nicely. As it turns out, there is a slight smile that I didn't account for in the least, so the tip's bevel just didn't develop 100% the first time around. I got it all dialed in now! Wicked edge on her now! A bit of advice to beginners like myself, and this has been echoed many a time...sometimes just walking away for a day or two and then taking another stab at it has better results than just hammering away at it over and over again.

Having said all of this....I can't wait until this weekend to learn from some wonderful honers and take a ton of new knowledge home with me!

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Originally Posted by rodb

I've done a few like that, walk away for a day or two then set a great bevel in 15 mins give or take.

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That is pretty much what happened. The bevel was good for 2/3 of the blade, the last 1/3 just needed to be dialed in....so it was a pretty quick touch up to finish it off!