honing old wedge blade without making a large edge

Good day gentlemen

Since few days, I'm occupied with this question. I love old wedge blades. I'm poisoned of them. Until now I honed many razors with success ( if we don't count all my first blades while I was learning). Well here the question, some old wedge blades some time they have lost width to heel with a smile edge or even not a smiley edge ( or a very softly smile bevel) I can't hone them with keeping the edge less large possible and while I was trying to have a bevel which cut arm hairs I'm having large and ugly edges, that's annoying!. Sometimes I need to try hold the spin up but this is hard too to find the good angle.

So id like to ask you if you have any tuto or tips to understand if I need to go with spin hold up ( hide know the right angle? ) or go through with normal homing but less large edge.

Here I add two pictures of a blade of mine before and after honed. I must mention the blade had a butter knife edge when I bought it ( as 0.5 mm with of the bevel when I looked it from down to see better it's bevel)

1st Attachment 209336

2nd Attachment 209338

Edit: That was hard to add pictures by my phone.

Use electrical tape...... I have used 2 or 3 layers to get a smaller edge. Pay attention to the tape and if needed replace the top layer when and if it gets worn down. This has worked for me on doing wedges and not wanting to get a "wide" edge.

Wedges usually have enough metal for a complete regrind. That would solve the geometry issues but electrical tape over the spine during honing is a commonly used approach to minimise bevel size.

Your going to have to regrind it some to get that bevel down now. Otherwise using tape will give you 2 bevels. The thickness at the spine is worn down a lot more than the thickness at the bevel. Hope you can visualize that .

With that fancy of a spine....would you do a regrind on it?

sure not. i'm not regrind it. actually it get honed and i can shave. i just wanted to have tips for next times. to get a smaller result with an other wedge. actually i used 4 or 5 slayers of tape with this blade but i did not have success to cut my arm hairs. i even don"t think if i added 15 slayers, i won't be honed well. as i said, i need to holp up the spine 0,5mm up for make bevel work on hones.

my question is not about only this blade but for having a technic and knowledge about to hone this kind of razors. with some, to make to wor/hone their bevels need to get really up their spine. how to know that before having a large edge? or do you think it will be normal to add 15-25 slayers of tape on the spine to get the good angle?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oustoura

sure not. i'm not regrind it. actually it get honed and i can shave. i just wanted to have tips for next times. to get a smaller result with an other wedge. actually i used 4 or 5 slayers of tape with this blade but i did not have success to cut my arm hairs. i even don"t think if i added 15 slayers, i won't be honed well. as i said, i need to holp up the spine 0,5mm up for make bevel work on hones.

my question is not about only this blade but for having a technic and knowledge about to hone this kind of razors. with some, to make to wor/hone their bevels need to get really up their spine. how to know that before having a large edge? or do you think it will be normal to add 15-25 slayers of tape on the spine to get the good angle?

---

By a good angle to you mean the proper bevel angle or do you mean a narrow bevel?

No, I don't think it is normal to add 15-25 layers of tape. I don't even think it is possible to hone with that many layers of tape on the spine. If you need that many layers of tape on the razor to get the right geometry it has some horrendous hone wear on the spine.

Bob

I don't think it is feasible to hone whilst holding the spine up. You should not require anything like that number of layers of tape - take a look at the Coticule.be website - there is a calculator on there that enables you to enter blade width and spine with and calculate how many layers of tape are required. The maximum they go up to is 4 layers, which seems about right in my opinion.

Also with blades that have a smile you may find that a rolling action is required - again the same site tries to describe this but is something you need to practice in order to get right. In my experience, some blades just have too many problems to get a consistently thin bevel - however, yours came with a lot better bevel than it has now - so you need also to consider that your abilities in honing are not as advanced as the person who originally honed it.

before i add more layers or hold up the spine, i tried as usual to hone it. but i did not have any good result. i was impossible to cut arm hairs, even if i pass the blade on my finger, i was just gliding even without cut. and that's how i had a large edge because while i was trying to hone it on hone without hold up its spine. it was not the bevel but the hone wear was working on the hones.

when i thought to hold up the spine and saw the bevel was touching on the hone and actually honing with some successfull result. i continued.

now i can shave myself, i stropped it as well as too. but just for my next times, i don't rather to have large hone wear. so needed to have some advices about that.

i tried the rolling action too. but it also required to hold spine up. the problem is not some point of the bevel get honed and some other is not. so rolling action with blade posed completely on the hone make nothing. (even with this one)

Yes, it looks like a heel forward rolling X stroke might have done the job. That would keep you off the flat on the tang which looks like you honed into on the second photo. The tape on the spine should stop just before/at where the flat starts on the tang. That would be my amateur honers guess.

Bob

This topic is timely for me as I just watched a Charlie Lewis video on honing a smiling edge and a gssixgun video on the same. Weirdly, CL lifts the spine at the end of a rolling X and gssixgun does not lift the spine. CL effectively freehands the blade while he is coming off the hone.
The confusion here seems to be a geometry challenged razor vs a smiling edge???

As a novice but enthusiastic honist, a smile on a razor with a straight spine seems to be a different animal from a smile on a razor with a curved spine. It makes sense that the former will not sit flat on the hone and the latter, where the bevel mimics the curve of the spine, will sit flat on the hone (both razors without geometry problems). Not sure if this will help the OP. I'm trying to work this out for my own honing adventures really.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BobH

Yes, it looks like a heel forward rolling X stroke might have done the job. That would keep you off the flat on the tang which looks like you honed into on the second photo. The tape on the spine should stop just before/at where the flat starts on the tang. That would be my amateur honers guess.

Bob

---

This is something that all of us have to confront at the beginning (where I am and I'll bet you are not!). It really requires one to look at the style of the blade to get cues on how to hone it. Using conventional intuition won't work because conventional intuition would say that the bevel of the blade, the actual cutting edge, can be honed by running the razor on the hone at a 90 degree angle to the spine. If you do that on this grind of razor you will grind into the flat and effectively destroy the razor which is a little sad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WW243

CL lifts the spine at the end of a rolling X and gssixgun does not lift the spine. CL effectively freehands the blade while he is coming off the hone.
The confusion here seems to be a geometry challenged razor vs a smiling edge???

---

i saw the same video and i thought he lift up the spine :/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WW243

This is something that all of us have to confront at the beginning (where I am and I'll bet you are not!). It really requires one to look at the style of the blade to get cues on how to hone it. Using conventional intuition won't work because conventional intuition would say that the bevel of the blade, the actual cutting edge, can be honed by running the razor on the hone at a 90 degree angle to the spine. If you do that on this grind of razor you will grind into the flat and effectively destroy the razor which is a little sad.

---

Novice honer here no expert by a long shot. I have to say though that I have very few razors that will sit with the spine and blade flat on the hone, most have some sort of warp/twist to them. That being the case I generally wind up honing with a rolling X stroke heel forward for either smilers or ones with straight edges and spines. I have learned the hard way that you do not want to start your stroke on the tang or run tape up on to the tang. Heel forward helps keep me of the tang while honing.

Bob

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BobH

Novice honer here no expert by a long shot. I have to say though that I have very few razors that will sit with the spine and blade flat on the hone, most have some sort of warp/twist to them. That being the case I generally wind up honing with a rolling X stroke heel forward for either smilers or ones with straight edges and spines. I have learned the hard way that you do not want to start your stroke on the tang or run tape up on to the tang. Heel forward helps keep me of the tang while honing.

Bob

---

If you watch the blade edge as you do your rolling X stroke, heel forward, is the edge and the spine in contact at all times?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WW243

If you watch the blade edge as you do your rolling X stroke, heel forward, is the edge and the spine in contact at all times?

---

Never really looked but I assume so.

Bob

If you want to shave with it, you may have to sacrifice visual aesthetics. Too much emphasis on spine wear and bevel wear, so long as it shaves well IMO. If you do not like spine wear, hone without tape until the bevel is correctly set. Then take it back to the buffers and buff out the spine wear and use one layer of tape to re-set your bevel.
Mike

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WW243

It makes sense that the former will not sit flat on the hone and the latter, where the bevel mimics the curve of the spine, will sit flat on the hone (both razors without geometry problems).

---

No.... A smiling edge can never lie flat on a flat hone regardless of spine shape. Two intersecting planes result in a straight line. Euclid ca 300 BC.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bluesman7

No.... A smiling edge can never lie flat on a flat hone regardless of spine shape. Two intersecting planes result in a straight line. Euclid ca 300 BC.

---

Gotcha, but the spine and the edge will always be in contact because the spine at some point is only partially on the hone. So a smiling edge lays flat on the hone, just not all at once. Right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WW243

So a smiling edge lays flat on the hone, just not all at once. Right?

---

Not sure that I follow you, but IMO a smiling edge is actually superior to a straight edge as every part of the edge is honed in its own time as the razor passes down the hone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WW243

Gotcha, but the spine and the edge will always be in contact because the spine at some point is only partially on the hone. So a smiling edge lays flat on the hone, just not all at once. Right?

---

I think that's exactly right WW. I have a Saito Japanese razor- the one that has an extreme curve - so it would be very easy to hone a 'flat' into the bevel if you did not use a rolling stroke. However, in order to keep the bevel even, the spine and edge have to both be touching the hone during the rolling action.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MODINE

If you want to shave with it, you may have to sacrifice visual aesthetics. Too much emphasis on spine wear and bevel wear, so long as it shaves well IMO. If you do not like spine wear, hone without tape until the bevel is correctly set. Then take it back to the buffers and buff out the spine wear and use one layer of tape to re-set your bevel.
Mike

---

Funny you say that. I have been honing without tape (unless I have to for geometry reasons) since I started and not long after I discovered that hone wear is easily buffed out. Sometimes I start with 1000 grit sandpaper and then 2000 grit and then buff. Usually takes about 5 minutes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steel

Funny you say that. I have been honing without tape (unless I have to for geometry reasons) since I started and not long after I discovered that hone wear is easily buffed out. Sometimes I start with 1000 grit sandpaper and then 2000 grit and then buff. Usually takes about 5 minutes.

---

Yes sir, my personal razors are honed without tape. Many wedge type blades can have some funky looking spine and edge wear. Hand honing or polishing is certainly preferable than using a machine to correct an issue.

Not sure I understand what is meant by re-grinding but that is the last thing I would do to beautiful vintage steel. Overheating the steel and losing the temper would be a shame. I’ve seen many ruined razors that are pretty to look at, but do not hold an edge to shave with...:shrug:
MIke

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MODINE

Not sure I understand what is meant by re-grinding but that is the last thing I would do to beautiful vintage steel. Overheating the steel and losing the temper would be a shame. I’ve seen many ruined razors that are pretty to look at, but do not hold an edge to shave with...:shrug:
MIke

---

AFAIK all razors are finish ground after HT with the same issues regarding not ruining the temper. The same skill set would be used in a regrind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bluesman7

Not sure that I follow you, but IMO a smiling edge is actually superior to a straight edge as every part of the edge is honed in its own time as the razor passes down the hone.

---

That's funny we were just talking about this yesterday haha

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steel

Funny you say that. I have been honing without tape (unless I have to for geometry reasons) since I started and not long after I discovered that hone wear is easily buffed out. Sometimes I start with 1000 grit sandpaper and then 2000 grit and then buff. Usually takes about 5 minutes.

---

If you are buffing hone wear out then surely you are altering the geometry. So in a hundred years time someone will pick up your razor and start altering the geometry again because it doesn't suit their skills.

I'm not sure if anyone knows for certain how the true wedges were initially honed. Possibly there was some sort of guide that slipped on or a series of slack strops with varying grit pastes, low to high. I usually use up to four layers of tape and heavy pressure and coarse stones to set the initial bevel and it will take a bit of time

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rodb

I'm not sure if anyone knows for certain how the true wedges were initially honed. Possibly there was some sort of guide that slipped on or a series of slack strops with varying grit pastes, low to high. I usually use up to four layers of tape and heavy pressure and coarse stones to set the initial bevel and it will take a bit of time

---

There are no true wedge blades in any kind of production numbers. Every shaving blade was ground on a wheel therefore, it was hollow to an extent and honing was exactly the same then as it is now, you lay the spine and the edge on a hone. If the grind is accurate you end up with an even bevel. If the grind is uneven, you end up with a bevel of variable width. The amount of steel in between the spine and bevel is irrelevant in terms of the bevel width - so long as it is hollow ground.

I've had a few that were nearly ruler flat bevel to spine with 1/4" - 1/2" of bevel if I didn't use tape and the spine didn't look all that worn. These were pre 1840 razors

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UKRob

There are no true wedge blades in any kind of production numbers. .

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UKRob

If you are buffing hone wear out then surely you are altering the geometry. So in a hundred years time someone will pick up your razor and start altering the geometry again because it doesn't suit their skills.

---

Lol. Yes. Good one :tu

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rodb

I'm not sure if anyone knows for certain how the true wedges were initially honed. Possibly there was some sort of guide that slipped on or a series of slack strops with varying grit pastes, low to high. I usually use up to four layers of tape and heavy pressure and coarse stones to set the initial bevel and it will take a bit of time

---

Or they freehanded it. It is doable, I have set a few preliminary bevels on Ebay specials freehand. With a bit of practice one could undoubtedly hone a razor so that it will shave comfortably. Muscle memory is a beautiful thing.

But they probably tried everything at one point.

Keep in mind

The difficulty is honing the old heavy grinds has nothing to do with them being an old heavy grind..

If you hone enough of them you will come across a few NOS ones, and learn that they hone EXACTLY like a Full Hollow.. They they have this sweet tiny even bevel and are easy as any other razor to set

The problem with these old razors is the honing that was done to them over the last 100+ years.

You have to correct the geometry if you want to get them back where they were in the past.

Nobody honed them in the old days by lifting the spine they didn't need to, unless they wrecked the spine to start :(

Just like all the other stories about how they were honed "Back in the Day" simply hone an NOS one and it all makes sense.. Easy as pie

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Keep in mind

The difficulty is honing the old heavy grinds has nothing to do with them being an old heavy grind..

If you hone enough of them you will come across a few NOS ones, and learn that they hone EXACTLY like a Full Hollow.. They they have this sweet tiny even bevel and are easy as any other razor to set

The problem with these old razors is the honing that was done to them over the last 100+ years.

You have to correct the geometry if you want to get them back where they were in the past.

Nobody honed them in the old days by lifting the spine they didn't need to, unless they wrecked the spine to start :(

Just like all the other stories about how they were honed "Back in the Day" simply hone an NOS one and it all makes sense.. Easy as pie

---

I can attest to this. I sent a 1 inch W&B wedge and a 5/8 W&B 'half hollow' to Glen (gssixgun) for honing. When he sent them back 'shave ready' the wedge's bevel was not any larger than the hollow's.

I recently honed a wedge and the bevel also looks very large towards the center. I'm not sure if this is due more to my error or the wear on the blade. I'm not very experienced, so I'm just looking at is as part of the learning process. :gl: