Other than how scratched up it still is? First this look like a good start to a bevel? I have shaved off this edge, and got a decent shave, but it wasn't smooth.
Printable View
Other than how scratched up it still is? First this look like a good start to a bevel? I have shaved off this edge, and got a decent shave, but it wasn't smooth.
G'Day Mate,
The bevel you have here (from what I can see) looks OK.
The 'trick' to a good, smooth shave is to
A. set a good, consistent bevel,
B. gradually refine the edge with progressively finer hones and less pressure,
C. Watch ALL of gssixguns honing videos on YouTube 'cause he tells it like it is.
This, of course, is just my humble opinion and YMMV.
Good luck
The bevel does not look finished to me, but it may just be the quality of the photos. The bevel should look the same all the way until it disappears at the edge. Your bevel seems to have a lighter region at the edge, suggesting that the bevels do not yet meet to form a proper edge.
I see that you are only an hour away from Kansas City, MO. That means that you are only an hour away from HiBudGl, Nun2Sharp, and Modine. If you get hold of one or more of of them you will get yourself an excellent honing education.
I keep trying to set some time aside to do that, but with work and family it hasn't happened. I have a bunch of hones, and several dull razors, so I decided to try on my own. So the lighter area at the end could mean I need to go back to the 1k and work on that again?Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
Just to be sure Drygulch, do you mark the edge with a sharpie or marker so that you can easily see the the complete honed edge?
I follow each step to the T, usually things go along decently when I use all the tips and stay within the guide lines.
You are lucky to have some Honemaster's not far from you, might you get the chance to see the hone masters?
What stones do you have and what did you use on that bevel?
How a bevel looks, tells you nothing about the edge. Look straight down at the edge with magnification, if you see shiny reflections on the edge, the bevels are not meeting.
Read the first 3 STICKY, threads in the honing forum. If you need more, go to the Honing section, of Maintaining a Razor section of the Library, and as said watch the videos in the library. All of this in no substitute for hands on instruction. Hands on, will dramatically cut your learning curve.
Magnification can sometimes tell you that your bevel is not set but it can't really say if it is set. The light area on the edge of that pic makes me think it's not set. Read up on the thumbnail test. When I'm setting a bevel I first feel the edge with my thumb pad. When it starts to feel sharp I'll see if it will easily shave arm hair. After that I'll do a thumbnail test. It tells me what areas are fully set and what areas need a little more work. I think you should go back to the 1k and do lots of feeling and testing during the process. Ultimately the thumbnail test will tell you what you need to know, but you have to get a feel for it. Keep at it, It'll get there.
What kind of 1k are you using?
Drygulch, as you probably can guess, opinions here can vary. You can take in lots of different opinions and decide what works for you.
Here's more of my opinion. Take it or leave it--just trying to help.
As Euclid described, if you look straight down on the edge and see any reflection, then the bevel is not set. I completely agree with that. IF you have access to magnification, you can see this same thing looking at the bevel from the same perspective as your photos.
Razor bevels are geometric planes. When two bevels completely meet, they form an edge. If the bevels are not fully set, then they do not meet and there is no complete edge. If a single bevel is a full flat plane on one side viewed as your photos are, then that plane will reflect light uniformly, not like your top photo. Your top photo does not show a full plane, as it is reflecting light differently near what is to become the edge.
Unlike others' opinions, I CAN determine that a bevel is fully set solely by microscopic observation. I know that is heretical for some, but as I said, a bevel is set when the two bevels meet, and I CAN see that under the microscope.
Like the Fig Newton guy sang in his jingle, here's the tricky part...
BOTH bevels must be complete planes. You have to look at both sides of the blade. I often have described a bevel set as the the conversion of the end view of a blade from a "U" to a "V" shape. BOTH planes must meet. Sometimes one side of the blade has a bevel that is like the side view of a "V" but the other side still can be incomplete, so still in the form of a "U" so the result still is not a full bevel set and still is not a complete edge. If both side views of the bevels show a fully cut plane all the way to an edge that is straight, then you have a fully set bevel.
Final thought...
Our lingo here always refers to a fully set bevel, or a full bevel set, or setting the bevel. In reality, the use of the singular term is incorrect. An edge is created by the meeting of BEVELS. That's plural. Proper honing requires the setting of the BEVELS.
One of the big challenges I am having is that with the magnification I have avalible, (30x and 60x lighted loupe) my eyesight is bad enoungh up close that I can't see things clearly. I did use a marker on this edge, but I may not have understood what I am looking at. I posted this thread so I could start getting tips on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by FAL
As far as meeting up with a more experienced member, several have said they are willing to meet when I reached out to them, however, I work 50-60 hours a week, and have pretty limited family time. At some point I hope to be able to set something up to spend a few hours with someone who knows what they are doing, but for now I am using this forum. I have read all the articles in the library several times, and watched the videos as well. Its sounding like I didn't get the bevel set correctly on this edge.
This bevel was set with a Naniwia 1K, that had been lapped. (I won it in a new member give away several months ago.) I followed it up with several Welsh Hones and an Arkansas Translucent. I know I will learn faster with hands on, but was trying to get a jumpstart on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
I am not confident at this point in any of my razors would give me a good example of how the thumbnail should feel. I know that the only test that matters for an edge is to shave with it. What supprises me is that I apparently didn't get the bevel set on this one, but have gotten two pretty good shaves off it. They weren't as smooth as some of my other razor, but they were pretty nice. I am using a Nanawia 1K.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeJay
Ok, that explains the scratches on the bevel.
Are those all the stones you have? Actually you should be able to put a very good edge on with those stones, but synthetics would be easier to learn.
Is the Welsh one of the EBay stones, and has the Ark been prepped or is it a Vintage stone?
Do you have any other synthetics?
If you are limited to the stones you have stated, here is how you can make it work… and work well.
Tape the spine to increase the angle a bit, ink the bevel with colored ink,(easier to see) and re set the bevel, doing a set of 20 circles, on each side, then 20 X laps. A little over kill but ok. Look at your ink after the circles and make sure you are honing all the way to the edge, from the heel to the toe. If not, use a rolling X stroke.
Change the tape on the spine, lap the Welsh stone and bevel the corners. Raise a thin slurry with the Ark. And do 2 sets of 20 circles, keep the slurry wet adding drops of water at a time, Then do X laps, thinning your slurry, adding drops of water as it starts to thicken, dilute to clear water. Look straight down on the edge, if you see shiny reflections, do more laps until you do not see any reflections on the edge. 100 laps is not unusual use lite pressure on the x laps.
Take a look at the coticule.be / Sharpening Academy, honing thread for slurry honing how to and use the Dilucot method.
Make sure your Ark is well burnished, (if Vintage it may be) if not, burnish with a large carbon kitchen knife or wide chisel. Look to Ark threads, for more info, there are many.
Now, add a layer of tape to the spine, (2 layers total) and do 10 light laps on the Ark, Strop and shave.
You can take your best shaving razor, look at the edge, if you do not see large chips, start on the Welsh and the Dilucot method and finish on the Ark.
The Welsh Stones are off Etsy, but the gentleman also sells on Ebay. I have all three grits, and used them in a progression. The Translucent Arkansas is a vintage stone, but I need to dress it again. In the cleaning process after I purchased it, I sanded it to a level surface, and removed the burnishing. I have three other natural stones that I haven't been able to identify exactly what they are. I did a thread here on them: http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...-i-find-2.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
The blue green one feels like it cuts a little more than the Welsh stones. No other synthetics right now.
Thanks @Euclid440! I will give that method a try before my next shave. Would you suggest using the Nanawia to work on the bevel before going to the Welsh stones and Tranlucent Arkansas?
Also, all three of the Welsh Hones have matching slurry stones to go with them, and are lapped and sanded. Would I still use the Arkansas to make a slurry?
If you have the slurry stone use it. Next time you get a finishing Ark, try it first, if it has been used much it will have years of burnishing on it and will work fine for razors.
Give it a try and you can still burnish the Ark to get a finer edge.
If you have a flat bevel with no chip in the edge, there is no need to reset the bevel, and can start with your slurry stone.
I have the 3 stone set and they are nowhere near the advertised grit rating, hard to say which of your stones is the finest, but they can produce a shaving edge. used with a hard Ark you can get a nice edge. Just keep an eye on the edge to make sure you are not chipping the edge with the Welch stones.
Using slurry is a skill in itself.
Lap you stones on a cookie sheet on a flat piece of cement, on Wet & Dry. Lap the Ark up to 1k, then burnish, 2-300 laps with pressure and soapy water or oil.
Euclid you are a very good teacher and explain things extremely well and thorough even if I may do things a bit different than you at times. I always enjoy reading posts like these and appreciate the time it takes you to respond in such detail.
Going to give this a go again tonight, and shave in the morning. My Welsh stones have all been lapped flat on sandpaper on a 4 inch thick slab of granite on my workbench, but only to 400 grit wet dry paper. I also chamfered the edges. My plan tonight is to lap them on 800 and 1000. The Translucent Arkansas has been lapped with a 400 grit. I will get it with the 800 and 1000 and use a carbon steel splitter blade to burnish the stone. (It is six inches long, but in a chisel grind. Used in a machine for splitting strips of leather to reduce the thickness.) I will post some pictures of the edge when I am working on it.
I've only ever lapped mine with a well worn DMT 325 and I can finish any razor on them in progression, with varying degrees of slurry and reducing pressure - just FWIW
:gl:
That should do it, use pressure and a bit of lube soap & water or some oil.
Do lots of laps, at least 100. The goal is to get the face as smooth as possible. It will cut slow but fine. Great for a micro bevel. 10-15 laps, with 2 layers of tape. You are just doing the edge, and will see 2 bevels, as you touch up the bevel will get wider until it is the whole bevel. Then just re-hone on the Welsh with one layer of tape and 2 on the ark.
I like the shave from an ark, it is crisp but not uncomfortable. You will also ge a great edge on your splitter.
Pick up some good razor quality, Chrome Oxide (about $10-15) for a strop and your good for a long time. SRD, Hand America or Kremer Pigments.
I've only ever lapped mine with a well worn DMT 325 and I can finish any razor on them in progression, with varying degrees of slurry and reducing pressure - just FWIW
They are all different, Naturals. Generally the finer the face, the slower the cut and shallow, the stria. If you are stropping on paste after, it does not matter much. The trick is to have a well prepared edge to work from.
Find a system that works and use it. I shaved just fine, with one razor, a 6in Translucent Ark, linen and leather for over 10 years, when I started.
Ok, I think the bevel is set now. Attachment 209554Attachment 209555
Hard to tell from the photo but I don't think the bevel is set yet. The bevel appears to be rounded over as it is still reflecting light differently as you look from the spine side to the edge side of the bevel.
Definitely hard to tell from pics.
Just jump to a finer hone & look to see if the edge is polishing up or the shoulder is polishing. The former is what you want
Attachment 209556Attachment 209557As I play with this macro lens, I am getting a little better at clear pictures. I started tonight on the 1k stone, the did the recommended strokes with slurry on each of the three Welsh hones. It was probably overkill, but the razor is popping arm hairs at treetop, and is smooth as silk on skin level hair. Going to shave with it in the morning, and will report back.
Nice,
Just look straight down on the edge, if you don’t see reflections, you are good.
Not seeing any, if I'm doing it right. I will say that my left forearm and leg look like I have mange right now.
If you shave with it and it works fine, then that trumps every d@mn bevel photo!!!
Look straight down on the edge and roll it from side to side, if you see shiny the bevels are not meeting or there are chips.
Here are 3 photos of the same razor, the first one, the bevels are not quite meeting, see the shiny reflections?
The second photo is a fully set and keen edge, the edge is not the shiny line on the bottom. The edge is just above the second red line and just looks blurred. The red is tape and a reflection of the tape.
The third one is a better photo of the edge straight down, the edge is near the bottom at an angle, the small white reflections are lint.
Attachment 209563Attachment 209564Attachment 209565
Whoo hoo! BBS shave this morning. Not as keen as some razors I have gotten, but pretty dang close. Razor was very smooth, and had good audio feedback this morning. I had to use a little bit more pressure than I would like on my chin, so I am going to go back the translucent Arkansas for a few more laps before I shave again Friday. Thank you for your help!
Good work, the 10 laps is just a guide, experiment to find the right combination for you. Stropping will enhance the edge a bit more, use lite pressure.
Progress rather than perfection. :D
Yea, with practice, your edges will get better. The better you prepare the edge with your Welch slurry stone, the better your edges will become.
If you watch vids of guys that really know Coticules, they do a lot of laps, slowly breaking down the slurry and refining the edge.
Then lightly polish a micro bevel with the ark. Then just maintain with your ark as needed.
I've now been straight razor shaving and reading this website for two years. I know technology and things like that improve over the last 100 years but how in the world did barbers 50 years ago shave their clients without the aid of loupes and digital microscopes? I like to think they used the thumb pad test and shaving arm hair and then shaving the customer and that was and is it.
Not all barbers honed their razors so it must not be that easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by gfro
Actually some 70 years ago Kousuke Iwasaki recommended looking at edges thru a microscope in his book so while the KISS principle is "good" there are those who prefer "better"
Magnification is a nice tool but it's definitely not a necessity. I can "see" everything happening on a bevel with the thumbnail test. I'd suggest that you constantly test your blades with other methods as you're learning to develop you're skills. Over time TPT's and TNT's will tell you all that you need to know. Sometimes I can feel imperfections that I can't see under a loupe.
100 years ago barbers were shaving people all day every day. Most of us shave one face a day. I'd guess most of them were vary familiar with honing and maintaining razors. I'd bet their blades got a few strokes on a hone on a daily basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by gfro
