One stone with a barber hone and bevel set.

Guys it's been a long while since I posted on SRP but I am back now... I have had a lot of solitary time to practice my skills and experiment. Here's a thread I posted on another site, I know it will be more welcomed here.

For those of you that hone razors, I've got a little success story for you.

When looking through the forums regarding barber hones most people see them touted as touch up hones to keep an edge going until it's time for re-honing. Even if you look at the instructions on the barber hones most say 4-6 strokes and then strop on clean leather. These hones work wonderfully for that purpose. Recently I thought why can't I hone a razor start to finish (after bevel set) on a dual sided barber hone? Do I have to stick to 4-6 strokes?

Where I am coming from is people say it is easy to over hone on a barber hone. Yes that may be true if you are touching up a shave ready razor but what about sharpening and then polishing one that isn't shave ready? Would it over hone in 4-6 strokes? No it will not. They may be fast cutting abrasives but they are glazed which greatly impedes there "grits" ability to cut material.

Honemeisters say it is super hard to over hone an edge and that you would need to stay on a low grit hone and use pressure and circles to produce an over honed edge. I believe it unless your technique is horrible and you're really pushing down on the razor. I think most people are really afraid to over hone so they don't hone enough and it leaves the edge dull. I know I used to be afraid of over honing... then you wonder if you're blade is dull because you over honed. Haha yea ok..

Now on to the success story http://shavenook.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Today I set a bevel on a vintage Keen Kutter. It was a smiling blade so I was using rolling x strokes. I went directly from my 1k water stone to my dual sided Keen Kutter Kombination barber hone. After that I went directly to the strop and I am now sporting a super smooth and clean shaven face. The aftershave had some burn to it but that dissipated within a few seconds. I had little irritation on my neck that lasted all of 2 minutes. That could partially be due to the fact that I've been messing around with a new soap and don't know it yet, not sure. As I'm not a big fan of pastes and sprays I can say it was a nice shave for under 20 minutes of work. I am working on the repeatability of the process but to get a great shave off a hone "unfit" to hone straight razors is a joy.



Cheers,
Scott

See, it really does not have to be that complicated.

After almost five years on the fora I am still not quite sure what "overhoning" means, but the only logical thing I can think of is honing to the point of establishing a false edge i.e. a burr or a fin. No I am no sharpening scientist by a long shot, but I am pretty sure that you can knock off/prevent a burr by doing an X number of edge-leading X-strokes, especially on relatively aggressive stones. Many instructions to barber hones that I have seen advised stroking in stropping direction, which makes creating a burr much easier because it is difficult to knock it off.

So if you have a good bevel and you keep the X-stroke repetitions per side low in order to prevent a burr on the barber hone you have, I do not see why you would not get the result you did. Then again, there is such a great variety of barber hones that it probably is not as self-evident as all that. But there is definitely no harm in trying.

Progressions schmogressions :)

I too have done the experiment. I have gone from a 1K to a Frictionite 00, and on to a very reasonable shave. I think barber hones are under rated as far as usability. I also seem to have it in my mind that the warning on barber hones is to check your edge often, not to restrict your honing, but tomato tomato. There is a guy that has done serious testing on barbers hones. You can look up most of the more common ones, and there were a lot made. They are quite inexpensive except for a few. They are a good place to start also.

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Originally Posted by RezDog

I too have done the experiment. I have gone from a 1K to a Frictionite 00, and on to a very reasonable shave. I think barber hones are under rated as far as usability. I also seem to have it in my mind that the warning on barber hones is to check your edge often, not to restrict your honing, but tomato tomato. There is a guy that has done serious testing on barbers hones. You can look up most of the more common ones, and there were a lot made. They are quite inexpensive except for a few. They are a good place to start also.

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I I have read through most of modines barber hone review, he takes an 8k or 15k edge and then does 8 strokes roughly on the barber hone to determine its effect on the edge. I do love his posts, however no where can I find much information on anyone honing their edge ground up on a barber hone. I have searched for some time into this topic and it seems it isn't explored all to much which is unfortunate.

I have been working on a repeatable process in getting shave ready edges off a barber hone only. I will post it once I perfect it.

@Pithor,

I did 60 strokes on the coarse side and 75 on the fine side using a certain process and it worked excellently.

I know it may be disagreed with but that for me dispels the barber hone myth, although I don't disagree with it degrading the edge in certain situations when too many strokes are used. I think barber hones have the potential to be used as more then just touch up options and want to explore that in further depth.

I have not looked for it but 10pups did a post a longtime ago with pretty much the same sort of thing. Barber hones have no real following though and not a lot of people seem interested. There are some of the 12K synthetic hones that have a massive fan base following. The result is that if a new guy asks for the most ideal way to touch up his blade he get 2 responses if any to use a barbers hone, and many more says spend a lot and get this 12K hone. There are a few believers out there in barbers hones, but we are few. Early on it was my only finisher, before I went crazy with hones and bought all kinds of stuff and then rock hounding. It has been a while since I used mine but they were very effective and produced very shave-able edges.

It is how it was done in the day…

They bevel set on a Washita, Silicone Carbide, India or any low grit natural and polish on a fine stone, Hard Ark, Coticule, Slates or Barber Hone.

I am sure Razor Guys were standing at the bar, saying “Barber Hones, Blah, that cheap crepe won’t last, hell they aren’t even perfectly flat.”

A barber hone is also how I do touch-up. Usually on an Apart or Frictionite. Many brands will work o.k.

IIRC; Utopian, and likely many others, like barber hones...

They were a lot of these experiments done it the past

What changed was the cost of the old Barber's Hones :( just 5 or so short years ago the BH's could be found easily on e-bay for $5 - $30 for just about any name hone you wanted in pristine shape...
At that time they were a great deal, and were often recommend, but with time the prices have gone through the roof, so given a choice of where to spend hard earned coin, the recommendations go to the best bang for the buck..

And to be perfectly honest once you hit the 8k level you pretty much have gone above the operating ceiling of any BH :)

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

They were a lot of these experiments done it the past

What changed was the cost of the old Barber's Hones :( just 5 or so short years ago the BH's could be found easily on e-bay for $5 - $30 for just about any name hone you wanted in pristine shape...
At that time they were a great deal, and were often recommend, but with time the prices have gone through the roof, so given a choice of where to spend hard earned coin, the recommendations go to the best bang for the buck..

And to be perfectly honest once you hit the 8k level you pretty much have gone above the operating ceiling of any BH :)

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Glen,

Where have the findings of these experiments gone? I can't seem to find a lot on it other then it's use as a touch up hone.

I was wondering if prices went up a lot and that's why a 10-12k is recommended over a barber hone. It's unfortunate but I agree with people being pointed to the best direction and best bang for the buck.

I just happen to like them just like others like coticules, eschers, water stones etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

And to be perfectly honest once you hit the 8k level you pretty much have gone above the operating ceiling of any BH :)

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can you expound upon that Glen? i have had no luck with barber hones. i currently hone up to a 8K and am happy with the shaves(admittedly i am a beginner at honing) when the edge feels like it needs a touch up i've tried a frictionite, swaty and a carborundum. they either do nothing or make the edge worse. i thought it was my inexperience, or not knowing when to touch up (maybe waiting too long).

I am pretty sure Lynn actually did a One Stone Hone vid using a BH you might search

My favorite is a Long Swaty, I still have one razor that has been exclusively maintained on BH's since 2007 :)

IIRC Ron aka Utopian has a set also that he has maintained for years using BH's


It really comes down to choice, there is nothing wrong with doing them anyway that gets you to a shaving edge.. You just have to realize that when most of us give a recommendation to newbs it is going to be the easiest most often successful path to achieve that.. It isn't even always what we ourselves do, or even what we think might be the best, it is what we know to work for the most people ..

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Originally Posted by tintin

can you expound upon that Glen? i have had no luck with barber hones. i currently hone up to a 8K and am happy with the shaves(admittedly i am a beginner at honing) when the edge feels like it needs a touch up i've tried a frictionite, swaty and a carborundum. they either do nothing or make the edge worse. i thought it was my inexperience, or not knowing when to touch up (maybe waiting too long).

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Personally I seriously doubt many if any BH's are over that level,,, I messed with them quite a bit, in fact I sold them for quite some time, tested every one that crossed my path...

They work quite well for what they were designed to do, they give good shaves, and when I could buy the best Swaty out there for $5 they were a great option... But when I hear numbers like 10k or 12k in relation to Barber's Hones I just roll my eyes and move on..

Sorta like every other stone out there, the numbers just continually seem to go up as soon as they go up on ebay :rofl2:


Now as to your maintenance I would try one razor that started at the 8k shaving level, on one BH and touch it up each weekend and see what that does, I have a vid up on how I use them..
See if that works for you and then adjust from there..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tintin

can you expound upon that Glen? i have had no luck with barber hones. i currently hone up to a 8K and am happy with the shaves(admittedly i am a beginner at honing) when the edge feels like it needs a touch up i've tried a frictionite, swaty and a carborundum. they either do nothing or make the edge worse. i thought it was my inexperience, or not knowing when to touch up (maybe waiting too long).

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Or you can trade me for the frictionite :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I am pretty sure Lynn actually did a One Stone Hone vid using a BH you might search

My favorite is a Long Swaty, I still have one razor that has been exclusively maintained on BH's since 2007 :)

IIRC Ron aka Utopian has a set also that he has maintained for years using BH's


It really comes down to choice, there is nothing wrong with doing them anyway that gets you to a shaving edge.. You just have to realize that when most of us give a recommendation to newbs it is going to be the easiest most often successful path to achieve that.. It isn't even always what we ourselves do, or even what we think might be the best, it is what we know to work for the most people ..

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I have never seen this video if anyone could post a link it would be helpful!!

The search goes on.

I have only tested one BH a 3 line swaty. honed my razor to 8k on a norton, I inspected the scratch pattern before and after using the BH. After the BH there was a deeper scratch pattern than the 8k left. I would estimate mine somewhere closer to a 6k barbor hone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP-GUeN_yBs

This is the one he is referring to.

Lapping and conditioning can improve performance, but still not as fine a polish as an 8k Norton.

You can shave off them though, a light hand and shaving cream helps.

Still months later I've been playing with the one stone barber hone method. For me it proves to be the easiest method. It's my fall back when I'm having no luck on the coticule. Which to be honest has been quite often lately.

I enjoy it's small size and its consistency. You do not have to slurry a barber hone, there are no dilutions, they are pretty bulletproof in their performance. Pressure is key on them. Figuring out the right pressure can take time. Along with that how many strokes should I make? That really depends. There is no way to nail down a method for every barber hone. Too much variance in their performance from stone to stone... Sound framiliar? Almost like a natural.... Not.

I've found using the TNT is paramount for success lately. It's a great test for finding a burr. An edge kill I've called it lately. I use the TNT the whole way up not just at bevel set. I use it then to tell I'm set, off the coarse side if I'm using a 2 sided hone and off the fine side before going to the strop. If any rough sensations are felt on the nail and you still strop it and shave you're in for a bad one. You've taken it too far. Joint and try again.

On the coarse sides if applicable, I've been using sets of 10 with light pressure right off the 1k, half strokes. TPT or AHT for gauge increases in keenness. Once improvement is seen I drop to sets of 5 x strokes with no pressure. Until the edge is maxed out or in the worst cases gone. (Harder to do on the coarse side)TNT to make sure no roughness is felt if don't even go to the fine side.

The fine side is pretty easy, it's just polishing what the coarse side made. If done right a sharp edge! I work in sets of 5 x strokes. Light to no pressure, sometimes if I'm a little behind off the coarse I'll use light pressure and go to none when required. It doesn't take too long on the fine side to finish up. I still use the TNT to make sure I haven't taken the edge to far. Once I feel like I'm there in the TPT, ( a nice sticky -ness for lack of a better term) I squirt some soft soap on the hone, mix it with water to allow the water to coat the entire hone and not bead up and do 5 very light x strokes to put the icing on the cake.


The method without a coarse side hasn't been as easy, it takes a lot more testing, time and patience. I try to work in the same half strokes of 10. This time using more moderate pressure. Working my way to no pressure. If you can't get it using this method the secondary bevel is always a great option add 1 or 2 layers of tape and hone until the TPT tells you to stop.

I have really found no advantage personally in linen with a barber hone edge. Leather yes, linen.. I haven't been lately. The first strop is very important and I like to do about 200 laps to really smooth things out.



Most of the edges have been crisp, but comfortable and close without razor burn or redness. If you like soft edges for your soft face this isn't the way for you.

They are not Suehrio Gokumyo 20k's, JNats, or eschers. They can provide an excellent shave, with nothing to be desired. All that it takes is time, patience, trial and error, and some facial hair.