Using the pyramid method for honing

Hi fellow shavers
I'm trying to learn how to hone, and have decided to use the pyramid method. As far as I know its the most structured way to get a shaveready edge, since every stroke on every hone is specified.

I have done some reading and found out that the feel of the edge is a good way of learning, when to go from one hone to the next, but...How do I do this if I'm jumping back and forth from the 4k to the 8k? Should I first learn how to get to a good shaveready edge, from the pyramid method, and then fokus on the edge feel later? and what is the best way of learning the feel of an edge?

Practice, practice and more practice.

To be honest, I know next to nothing about honing after only having about 6 months in to it.

My long distance honing mentor (across the country) advised me away from pyramids and lap counting for that matter, to entirely just feel and then observation of the edge under the loop as a guide to when to move to the next hone or when you are finished. Then of course the ultimate feel test after stropping--the shave.

So far, it has worked very well for me and my edges seem to be as good as, or nearly as good as any that I have tried.

Others with knowledge will advise you better.

From personal experience and advice from other senior members the pyramid method is a decent place for beginners to start to get a decent shaving edge. Later on as you do more honing and become more proficient you learn counting strokes, at least for me, is to help you keep the same number of passes on both sides of the edge to keep it even and you rely more on feel (feedback) than counting strokes. This is learned from experience and a lot of honing, not something you pick up over night.

I learned on Lynn's pyramid and still use my own variations on it most of the time. It works. JMHO

i started with the pyramid method and found that for me it was no guarantee of a shave ready edge. have since moved away from it to using the thumb pad test along with a loupe and a usb microscope. i'm still not getting 100% shave ready edges on the first try but am learning more what to look for. There is so much more to it than number of laps. Knowing when to apply pressure and how much is also a big part of it. Start with the pyramid and see where it leads you.JMHO

Getting your bevel set on the 1k should be your primary concern. Nothing else matters until you get it set. I need for my edge to be shaving arm hair across the entire length of the edge at skin level to even think about moving on in my progression. There really is no substitute to finding your own sharpness tests because of how subjective they are. I found that through trial and error and keeping track of each was i able to improve my edges. Finding one or two razors that you don't mind possibly screwing up would be my first step. Just keep reading and watching the honing stuff on this sight and on youtube (Lynn and Glens are the most complete and comprehensive that I found) and things will eventually click.

Just curious but what made you decide the pyramid was the way to go?

One way to practice the thumb-pad test is to buy a DE blade and use a wet thumb-pad to practice on it. Could also dull one side slightly to compare sides.

Can you give us a little more info? What razor, what condition, what stones, what result you're looking for?

Either a pyramid or individual stones will both work equally well when you understand what you're doing. And neither will work if you don't know what you're doing.

Thanks to all of you guys for your replies :)

Ultimately I'm looking for a shaveready edge. I know it's going to take a while, but thats my long term goal. I have bought a few stones in preparation of my honing adventures: 1k naniva, 4k/8k norton and 12k naniva. I also bought a few razors of ebay, so I guess I'm just going to select one of those and give it a go. All are in good condition, no rust, no chips in the edge and minimal honewear. :)

My plan was to first learn how to set a bevel correctly. I read about the tomato test, where I would take a cherrytomato and see if I could cut into it; like in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Utfg9VZTVVY
Another test I'l use is the shave-armhair-at-skinlevel-test, and see what I learn from it.
I also read about the "sticky" feeling of a set bevel edge, but again, that depends on how callus my hands is. I will definitly try the wet DE blade method you described sticky.
I guess I'm going to have to give it a shot and see what I learn from it.

The reason I chose the pyramid method is that it seems to be the method with the least amout of guesswork. I always have a hard time learning new things if I dont have a referencepoint, in this case, how the edge should feel, when I'm done with a given stone.

Well I'd stick with shaving arm hair all along the blade, then popping hanging arm hair all along the blade, instead of tomatoes. Not that there's anything wrong with tomatoes. And use the thumb nail test and get a loupe.
If you haven't got one, this is good:
Jewelers Loupe 30x Magnifier 25mm Glass Lens Magnifying Illuminated Lighted LED | eBay
I think the sticky test is probably the craziest test, cause you've got no idea what sticky feels like, and everything kinda feels sticky, until you finally put a good edge on - and it actually is sticky, but by then you know how to hone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ostekongen

Thanks to all of you guys for your replies :)

Ultimately I'm looking for a shaveready edge. I know it's going to take a while, but thats my long term goal. I have bought a few stones in preparation of my honing adventures: 1k naniva, 4k/8k norton and 12k naniva. I also bought a few razors of ebay, so I guess I'm just going to select one of those and give it a go. All are in good condition, no rust, no chips in the edge and minimal honewear. :)

My plan was to first learn how to set a bevel correctly. I read about the tomato test, where I would take a cherrytomato and see if I could cut into it; like in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Utfg9VZTVVY
Another test I'l use is the shave-armhair-at-skinlevel-test, and see what I learn from it.
I also read about the "sticky" feeling of a set bevel edge, but again, that depends on how callus my hands is. I will definitly try the wet DE blade method you described sticky.
I guess I'm going to have to give it a shot and see what I learn from it.

The reason I chose the pyramid method is that it seems to be the method with the least amout of guesswork. I always have a hard time learning new things if I dont have a referencepoint, in this case, how the edge should feel, when I'm done with a given stone.

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The cherry tomatoe test like any test works well if you know how to use it, I would say the best edge probing test is the thumb pad test you just get so much out of it. I gave up using magnification while honing due to the fact that I was honing for looks instead of honing for sharp shave readiness. I figured if it was shiny it would shave.. Keep that in mind.

About the pyramid method I have tried it in the past and failed miserably. It is unfortunate but I gave up on it and sold my water stones. I hope you can pull through and figure it out. It takes a lot of guess work out of honing but not all. Different blades require different things. Keep us posted on your progress and good luck!

Most importantly you should enjoy what you are doing :)

Shaving arm hair also works. The only issue I see with this is: should the hair be shaven off easily at skinlevel or is it ok if it tugs a little?
Setting the bevel is apparently 80-90% of the honing process, so I guess I would do well to lean that first...

The arm hair test should be done half way up the hair shaft or higher for the shave ready test, not at skin level. A well made bevel off of the 1k stone will easily cut hair at skin level, that is my test for moving up to a higher grit stone.

I haven't done pyramids for a long time but they worked well after a bevel was properly set on a 1k

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ostekongen

Shaving arm hair also works. The only issue I see with this is: should the hair be shaven off easily at skinlevel or is it ok if it tugs a little?
Setting the bevel is apparently 80-90% of the honing process, so I guess I would do well to lean that first...

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Get a loupe and a sharpie too. Both are great for seeing what is happening on the bevel. The thing that seems to be the most difficult thing about honing is interpreting how each blade needs to be rubbed on the stone. The rolling x stroke is the one I use most commonly. The idea is that you get the entire bevel on each stroke, sometimes it takes some gymnastics and usually each side needs a slightly different stroke to follow the bevel. This is easiest to see when you ink the bevel. You should be able to remove the ink in one stroke.

One thing that is really important is that you don't start on a blade that needs restoring, i.e. a frown or one with chips or just a blade whose geometry is all screwed up, it makes learning a lot harder and more frustrating than enjoyable, unless you like to punish yourself.

A good place to start is one your shave ready blade that starts to pull, no amount of stropping will bring it back. Start with your 12k naniwa. Make sure its well lapped. Use whatever tape or no tape on the spine, best to ask the person who honed it, they can tell you. Start with the ink and make a few strokes, it should be apparent at that point whats going on. It shouldn't take very many strokes to refresh. Try popping arm hair above the skin, it should be at least be taking a few if not all the hair the edge touches, though this can vary depending on your particular hair, again why sharpness tests are only subjective and why the shave test is the tell all. Take your time here, remember what you thought was sharp enough, and why you thought it was sharp enough. This will give you a great starting point to develop your own gauge of how sharp is good enough.

If your blade is cutting beard well but the shave is irritating or you're getting nicks or weepers when you feel you have done a good job shaving go back to the loupe, if you look hard enough you'll see little shiny spots where the edge should be.
those are micro chips that either weren't honed all the way out or were caused by too much pressure while honing or stropping. The bevels should look perfectly shiny under 10x and the edge should give off no indications that its even there.

Good luck! There's nothing better than getting a great shave from a razor you have honed.

....and when all the honing is done, strop the bejesus out of it...100, 200, however any you can do well.

Where are you located? If you can find someone near you for some one on one help, then your honing will improve much more rapidly.

The sharpie thing sounds like a good idea, I'l give that a shot. I have a jewellers loupe, and can see that I'm removing scratches when I hone and feel the edge improve, so I must be doing something right :)
Some of the blades I bought are slightly warped at the toe, so I wont be using them unfortunately. :/ I thought about buying a couple of gold dollar razors from a vendor here on SRP. I know they get a lot of flack, but I figured if I bought one that has been proffesionally honed I know it should be able to shave. If I mess it up, I won't have wasted as much.

How would the post hone stropping benefit the edge?
I live in Denmark, Copenhagen. If I could find a honemeister near me that would be awsome, I'l give that a shot :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ostekongen

The sharpie thing sounds like a good idea, I'l give that a shot. I have a jewellers loupe, and can see that I'm removing scratches when I hone and feel the edge improve, so I must be doing something right :)
Some of the blades I bought are slightly warped at the toe, so I wont be using them unfortunately. :/ I thought about buying a couple of gold dollar razors from a vendor here on SRP. I know they get a lot of flack, but I figured if I bought one that has been proffesionally honed I know it should be able to shave. If I mess it up, I won't have wasted as much.

How would the post hone stropping benefit the edge?
I live in Denmark, Copenhagen. If I could find a honemeister near me that would be awsome, I'l give that a shot :)

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Post hone stropping is absolutely critical, you can have a shave ready edge but if your stropping sucks the shave will suck. The stropping smooths out the edge.

The goal of honing a razor, as opposed to sharpening a knife is, first to get the edge sharp, then get the edge as straight and smooth as possible to make the shaving edge comfortable. Knife edges don’t need to be comfortable, just sharp.

Stropping polishes the edge for comfort, removing oxidation and soap and realigning the edge.

You will need to strop before each shave, unfortunately stropping is where most damage the edge, one errant stroke can wipe an edge. Once mastered, and it’s not that tough, proper stropping can keep you shaving very well, for a very long time.

Ostekongen, the link below is a current list of all members that list Denmark. Explore the list looking for those that have posted within the past seven or eight months. No doubt some of them would be willing to sit down with you and go over what is needed.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...sername&order=

So stropping 2-300 times after honing will give me a better edge? I always thought the only stropping nessecary was before I shaved. Live and learn :)
Thanks for the list Razorfeld, I will definetly check that out :)

You're welcome. Let us know who will be giving you the help you need. Always nice to chart the active members.

I will, thanks to everyone for helping :)

Might be you have found help locally, but if not, I'd be happy to help you out when I travel down there.
I'm in Copenhagen for knife and razor meetups occasionally, so I'd be more than willing to meet up for a little honing:)
Heck, I'll keep you in mind for the next one and make sure you get an invite to the meetup

Sorry for the late reply, family commitments...I would wery much like that Birnando, thanks. :)