Not Another Honing Post!!

I've been searching and reading, and have tried to glean as much as possible in the posts. However, there are a few intricacies that I have questions about.

First, I'm new to honing. I've been shaving for over a year with a 5/8 Dovo I got from classic (high carbon with the gold leafing). I've maintained the blade using a paddle strop and diamond pastes. However, it was time to get the Norton waterstone.

Needless to say, I've not had good luck. I'm not yet good at the thumbnail test, so I let the shaving do the talking. I've got 5 days growth right now, to give you an idea of the painful shave I took last week!

The questions:
I've read about the pyramids, so no need to reiterate.

I know the direction and X pattern as well. However, is the X necessary with the wide waterstone? My mate and I have discussed this and it makes sense to use the X. My concern here is that the heel(handle side) of the blade gets less action on the stone. (because the blade hangs over as the X pattern is created.) Has anyone tried a parallel stroke while holding the blade at an angle?? (think of a snowplow) This would allow 100% contact all the time, while keeping an angle in the blade. The only thing to watch out for is the spine roll and set up for the return stroke. Just a thought.

As for holding the blade, I've seen one video where the person uses one hand, much like stropping. I've read about using 2 hands and handling the blade primarily, not the handle. What's recommended for the beginner? What delivers the best results?

Back to the X pattern. It seems to me that I strop in the opposite direction of the "angled teeth" of the blade. In other words, the honing direction should create an angle that moves from blade-heel to spine-tip. However, the stropping action I use, unless I am wrong, follows an angle that moves from spine-heel to blade-tip. These 2 angles on the blade edge are contradictory. Does it matter? (please try to understand this section or ask for clarification; I'm not talking about the motion, but the resulting path of travel)

Conclusion:
Perhaps I just need to keep at it. It would be nice if someone could compile all the various things from other posts into a FAQ for honing. Then send it in to classic to update their page :) Maybe I've overlooked a section like this here, but I think I've been pretty thorough. If I ever figure it all out, then maybe I'll collate all the info into a section.

Thanks for any help, links, or words of advice.

You mention using the thunbnail test: I'd have thought that the thumb pad test would be more appropriate for what you are checking? You'd definitely want to rehone after using your thumb nail.

The advantage of using two hands on the blade is that you can protect yourself against lifting the spine/edge. The disadvantage is that you are almost certainly going to use too much pressure that way. It's also easier to accidentally roll the blade when you hold the handle and not the blade. I think that the key to this when learning (like I am) is to just go slowly at all times.

Morpheus,

I'll tackle a couple of your questions here. For starters, Paul is right. The thumbnail test is for making sure your edge is sharp and even, not testing shave-readiness. I'll use it to determine whether I'm done setting the bevel on the 4K side. If you do it after the 8K side, you're dulling the edge.

A few guys hone two-handed, but for most people one-handed seems to be best. I'll sometimes use two hands when I'm on the low end of the grit scale and trying to set the bevel or remove a nick. Other than that, I use one hand.

Honing straight across the stone can work well if you have a razor with a perfectly straight edge. Most razors I hone have a slight curve to them, which makes an X pattern necessary. The heel does spend less time on the hone with the X pattern, but it seems to even out because it's also closer to your hand, and thus gets slightly more pressure.

Don't worry about the stropping thing. Stropping helps polish the edge, and going across the grain of the scratches aids this polishing. Most edges get more comfortable after a few shaves due to the polishing from the leather.

Keep at it--there's definitely a learning curve, but it sounds like you have a good foundation to work from.

Josh

You can get an edge really sharp just going down the hone, but its not the best method. Lap the hone very often if your going to try that. Using an x pattern is a little better.

First, your not restriating an edge or anything like that when you strop, all your doing is aligning the edge with outward motion and smoothing out the bevel sides for a smoother stroke along the skin. So drop out of your worries about stropping.

A few key points:

These are all just opinion ok, I don't give a cr+p anymore if anyone buys into this stuff.

You must be reducing pressure until you get to only the weight of the blade

You must "finish" off the teeth and smooth the edge completely. This might take a while. This is probably the problem most of the time people hone.

You must use equal pressure on every stroke when applying any pressure at all. When you use the weight of the blade its equal on both sides, obviously.

You must use the same angle consistently

You must move the razor the same amount of travel distance on the hone when honing each side

You must keep the razor flat

You must stroke the edge carefully to smooth out a perfect bevel (once its achieved). No dropping the razors edge, no bouncing, no mistakes.

Think about the edge of the razor a little bit. Imagine a fragile edge that you want to run down a gritted ROCK. Don't you think an edge is honed very differently when you use an x pattern than if you just pushed a razor straight down the hone? Imagine that it is really, really important to abrade the soft metal edge into itself so it isn't all crumbled up in the process by the rocks grit. Imagine that you are sharpening the very center of the edge and that the area just above that spot needs to support the center of the edge as you abrade the edge into the grit or it'll just break off.

Now, can you see how moving the edge straight across the hone even if you angle it does not produce as much support against the edge as moving the edge in an x pattern nearly straight down? Try it both ways, can you put the scales on the hone and pull it sideways or is it more effective to pull the razor straight down by pulling it off the hone downward.

When I hone I angle the razor and use an x pattern so I can achieve the thinnest possible edge on the planet. Whatcha think of that?

Just chiming back in to say thanks for the replies thus far.

I wanted to let you know that I am watching my post eagerly and really enjoying the advice. I haven't returned to the hone yet, but did 100 round trips on the linen just for fun tonight and grabbed a few strokes down one cheek. Slightly better than the other night, but nowhere near what I used to have. A friend thought maybe I just needed to finish off the teeth a little.

Tomorrow I may try to just practice the X stroke slowly, and on the 8k for a good while. We'll see what I learn from that experiment. I'm trying to be patient, but my wife is sick of the scruffy nerf-herder look!!

Keep replying, folks, I love the advice and analogies. It does help me as I like to understand the mechanics of things, not just the "how?".

- Mitchell

Thanks for saving me the time to write the post. I am watching your thread also. Like you, I want a good edge and not screw up a good razor.

Martin

Well I went ahead last Sunday and tried my own experiment. I did 5 round trips on the 4k, no pressure, 2 handed X stroke. Then I went to the 8k and completed 30 trips, checking every 10 for a wire. Then I finished it off with 60 trips on the linen and 30 on the leather.

Again, I've not felt enough blades to know the "thumb pad test" and what to feel. And yes, I'll be honest, I'm not comfortable with running my thumb on the blade. Sure, I'll drag it across my face, but my thumb, are you crazy?! http://straightrazorpalace.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
:)

For me, the proof is in the pudding. At least until I can feel with my thumb what condition the blade is in. So I put steel to skin and was pleasantly surprised. I'd honed the blade into "working" condition. It is definitely sharper than a few weeks back when I decided to learn honing. Is it as sharp as an LA honing? I'm not sure. Like I said, I think I can work with it now and play around a little more safely, knowing I have at least one method that works.

As for the pyramids (10-10, 8-8, 5-5, 1-3, etc.) I'm not sure how they are going to build a better edge. Perhaps that's for blades that need a lot of work. My blade was purchased new and has been maintained by me, so maybe that's why it required 1 round on the 4k. I don't know.

I'm figuring no one else is going to post much anymore here, but I'll try to keep notes and make updates.

Morpheus,

The pyramid, in my understanding, has at least two benefits:
-It allows a newbie to eventually get a good edge without being able to evaluate the edge as it develops. This evaluation process is the hard part of learning to hone in my book. The mechanics are simple; knowing when to apply different techniques comes with experience. The pyramid is something of a brute force approach.
-It also helps prevent a wire edge from forming. I'm not sure how it works exactly; my theory is that the 8K pushes the edge thinner, while the 4K strips off the metal that's too weak (beginning of a wire edge). If you just go with the 4K and then the 8K, you're more likely to end up with an overhoned edge.

This isn't to say that a simple progression from the 4K to the 8K won't work; I hone a lot of blades that way. But if I get stuck on an edge, the pyramids will often set it right.

Anyway, it sounds like you're off to a good start. Keep practicing!

Josh