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Chaps,
I have read that a thick lather is the thing to use on a barber hone, and I agree that it certainly gives a nicer edge than just using water.
My question is what does the lather do that makes it a better lubricant from point of view of edge niceness?
Kind regards ed.
My though is the lather makes the blade aquaplane an achieve a finer polish
Ed, what type of barber bone are you using? And just for touch ups?Quote:
Originally Posted by edhewitt
Take it with a grain of salt but I think it adds a bit of cushion to the stone making it perform seemingly better then with plain water. Almost like water only shaving vs shaving with lather. Just a buffer between the abrasive particles of the hone and the edge. I'll pre finish my barber hone edges on water only and then finish on lather.. But then again who am I?
I think it is labelled "the best hone co". Much like a lot of the hardware store razors I presume it is a generic hone that just has X X X X brand stamped on it.i think I have a picture or two in my gallery thingo let me look.Quote:
Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER
I think it is just a heavier bodied and slicker lubricant than water.
The old barbers I knew, AFAIK, used the barber hones dry, and the coticule with lather. The lather from their 'Lather King' hot lather machine. At least that is what they showed me. I've tried whipping up lather off of a puck and using it on a coticule. Slick, like Shaun said. I don't remember liking it particularly, but maybe I didn't give it enough of a go. I may try that again just for the heck of it.
A few barber hones that I have give instructions for repeatedly coating the hone with lather, letting it dry in place, and then wiping it off. Afterward it was to be used dry or with water. I think the idea was to fill in the pores of the hone.
I have never liked the effect of honing with full lather on a barber hone. I just feel that I get too much glide and not enough cut. The only time that I use lather rather than plain water, is with the many barber hones that bead water. I touch a lathered brush to a wet hone and transfer just enough lather to break the surface tension of the water so that I have a uniform layer of lathered water on the hone.
I have just revisited my coticule and this just may be the ticket...I've done experiments like this on the CF with different types of oil.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
Still waiting on the pics :)Quote:
Originally Posted by edhewitt
Maybe they filled the pores to make the barber hone a less aggressive hone,,, since they probably touched a hone up once or twice a day, on a busy day,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, there were none of those Naniwa 12K lying around. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
Only got back to where it is last night. Will post something this eveningQuote:
Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER
Ah yes, the joys of working in remote locations!Quote:
Originally Posted by edhewitt
It makes perfect sense that lather can tone down the aggressive cut of some barber hones making for a finer finish. I experimented with dish soap and lather using it even on my honing progressions to see the effect. Using too much can be a mistake spinning your wheels so to speak. Once I put too much soap on a 3 k and honed 4 like a half hour with minimal progress. I would personally use lather or soap only at the very end after it was already there and it might add just a little umph to your edge.
I'm a bit surprised that Ron's response is the only one mentioning surface tension so far. Soap changes the surface tension ('breaks' it, for lack of a better way to put it), so if anything, the buffer zone between hone and steel would be less rather than more when compared to plain water i.e. plain water works more slowly but finer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
I'm just spit balling here, but maybe the idea of using lather developed as honers (barbers, I guess) needed their hones to work fast, yet they wanted to create some form of buffer between edge and hone to avoid the harshness a 'raw', dry hone would provide. Water might slow down the process too much (even though I assume most barbers could do more strokes in ten seconds than many of us in a minute) and breaking the surface tension with lather might have been the ideal solution for fast, yet moderately refined results.
They needed more speed? Really?
I don't say your wrong,,, as none of us here in the conversation, so far, has had to make a living using one all day. What could possibly be the difference from start to finish of 6 strokes on a barber hone, with only water compared to light lather?
Different feedback maybe?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hirlau
My other theory is the psychological effect putting lather on a barber hone has. It feels different so it must be making a finer edge..
Kind of like how old timers swear by using oil to sharpen but these days some of the worlds better knife sharpeners are advocating that oil is not necessary.
You think gramps is giving that oil bottle up? No way, for him it makes a better edge because the "oil" floats away the steel.
It's all a mind trick!!!! Don't stare into the light.
I think all of us here , are over analyzing the old lather & hone issue.
The barber is standing next to a man in a chair, with lather just applied to his face,,, he reaches for a razor or decides after a stroke or two that it needs a touch up, takes a little lather from the back of the guys neck, smears the hone(which was in his jacket pocket) a few strokes,,, grab the hanging strop,,, back in the game.
I don't feel speed, drag or floating steel ever enters his mind.
My barber has been shaving clients for 60+ years,,, he shows me his old strop & razors every time I see him,,, I have his coticule; I will put this situation to him in 2 weeks for his reply.
The surface tension to which I was referring was the tendency for non porous hones to bead water. The result of this is that the first stroke pretty much pushes all the water off the hone. A bit of soap causes the water to be uniformly distributed on the hone, making all strokes on all areas on the hone uniform.
O.K. that makes sense,,,, I did an edit in my above post,,, I intrepid-ed tension as resistance,,, don't know why.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
My barber used a coticule & when giving it to me, he gave me a serious look & stated, "Only use lather with it." I think he may shed some light on this issue.
That has never been my intent, but I have seen this response of surface tension representing resistance in past threads as well. I need to stop adding to the confusion and come up with a different description to avoid that term.
I think if a barber told you to just use lather, then that meaning is pretty straight forward. Unfortunately, I just cannot tolerate the effect of undiluted lather on the hone. I've tried, but really don't feel that it is allowing enough cutting of the steel.
Since I'm doing the Williams challenge, I guess I'll give it a go with Williams on a coticule.
Ok.... I am getting lost here...
From what I see of this surface tension of water idea is that the surface tension of water will hold the edge up from contact with the hone and therefore creating less resistance, less abrasion.
By adding soap to the mixture the surface tension of the water would be reduced and allowing the edge to contact the hone. Therefore creating more resistance, more abrasion, between the hone and the edge.
Attachment 214102Attachment 214103
here are a few pictures of the hone, sorry that the quality isnt great.
It appears to be in pretty good shape.
it was a bit rough when i got it (sort of pockmarked) so i lapped it on my atoma 400. it seems to have mellowed somewhat as i have used it, either that or i am getting to know it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hirlau
Quote:
Originally Posted by edhewitt
I would lap it a bit finer. May make it cut finer I know I restored an old barber hone and lapped it to 1500. Smooth sailing now. Then I treated it to restore some moisture. I forgot I even posted to this thread lol. Thanks for the pix it looks good.
It it probably is getting finer, like burnishing a hard ark. Smooths the cutting particles out and mellows them, in turn it cuts finer or doesn't cut as much. I'm not certain.
Cheers!
Wikipedia defines surface tension as such...Quote:
Originally Posted by 32t
"Surface tension is the elastic tendency of liquids which makes them acquire the least surface area possible. Surface tension is an important property that markedly influences many ecosystems."
When I referred to surface tension, that first sentence is pretty much what I was referencing. Non porous hones tend to have beaded water on it--due to surface tension. For that reason I add a just a little lather to allow the water to spread uniformly on the hone.
It has nothing to do with any change in the drag or resistance of the water during the honing. It only ensures that the hones is uniformly wet over its entire surface.
Here is an image of such an effect from surface tension.Attachment 214108
This is not in disagreement with what I am thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
I am not thinking about the drag of the water while honing but the drag of the stone against the steel.
The water with its surface tension will hold the steel away from the hone. Therefore creating less friction between the hone and the blade.
The addition of soap to the mixture will lessen the surface tension of the water and allow the steel to contact the surface of the hone to create more drag/abrasion of the steel.
Williams. Give the barber hone Williams! :rofl2:
Why punish the hone ? :shrug:
If it is really bad we could douse it in Avon aftershave and set it on fire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hirlau
I wish that a hone had feelings so it could answer your question!:rofl2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hirlau
I would have thought that the hones were hydrophobic rather than hygroscopic, and even if you did put some moisture in that it would just evaporate out again, but that is just me guessing.Quote:
Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER
I am fairly happy with the finish on the hone, it seems to be working.
I would have thought that the hones were hydrophobic rather than hygroscopic, and even if you did put some moisture in that it would just evaporate out again, but that is just me guessing.Quote:
Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER
I am fairly happy with the finish on the hone, it seems to be working.
Consider the difference in friction between a wet hone and a dry hone. A hone with beaded water is pretty much going to work like a dry hone because the beads usually get pushed right off the hone. One of the most glorious aspects of honing is the movement of the water wave in front of the hone and the transition to when the blade is undercutting the water when enough steel has been removed to improve the contact between the blade and the hone. I like to add a little lather to make sure that the water on the non-porous barber hone behaves that way. A dry hone, or a hone with beaded water, does not give that feedback.Quote:
Originally Posted by 32t
I know I did not directly address your comment but instead sort of just approached it at a tangent at best.
Some hones are meant to be used dry and some declare they can be used dry, with water, or with lather. I'm not sure that any option makes that much of a difference in performance.
It depends on the hone, though I do prefer the terms "porous" and "non-porous," as I consider them to be more accurate. There are barber hones of each type. The former beads water on the surface while the latter will soak up water placed on its surface.Quote:
Originally Posted by edhewitt
Ed your hone looks to be a variant similar to a Swaty. I would assume that water beads up on it.
From memory it does. Though I haven't wetted it for a while. Normally I just lather it, use it and then wipe it down on a towel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
I could give it a try tonight.
I remember reading that barber hones are hard work to lap but my atoma ate this one.
And I'm going to have to go back to trying full lather (fortunately I've been using Williams exclusively this week) on a few hones and blades.
This is what I was thinking as well. I do not mean that barbers necessarily consider surface tension though, indeed more along the lines of 'Dry hones suck. Oooh, look at all that lather.' But yes, reduced surface friction resulting in more aggressive steel abrasion.Quote:
Originally Posted by 32t
I'm pretty sure the elastic tendency of liquids has an influence on both the surface the liquid occupies and the resistance at the liquid's own surface level. I don't think there's an argument here.
I'm not too sure about that. For slurry or water to have any effect on the edge, you really don't need a lot of it. Just the tiniest amount working along the edge will have the same effect as an ocean of it covering the hone (except that the more water is on the hone, the easier it is to undercut, or at least more difficult to read for feedback, in my experience).Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
I found that when adding even the tiniest amount of detergent or soap, every edge pretty much irrespective of its sharpness will undercut water to the degree that the entire blade face will be covered by water.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
I have only tried two or three barber hones but plenty of coticules, which are non-porous in their very nature. I just tried it with a blunt razor on my "beadiest" coticule (a mottled Les Latneuses) and the razor went from barely "penetrating" the water's surface to being covered in water after adding less than a pin's head amount of liquid detergent.
After adding a minimal amount of lather to clear water the effect was much the same, be it to a lesser extent compared to liquid detergent. I don't feel like I would get useful feedback and the fact that it is no longer water but soapy water would trouble the waters (harhar) for me enough not to rely on it. But if you feel it is a useful tool then, well, power to you.
Also on that particular hone I judge the edge based on the level of undercutting on clear water, even though during the first few strokes I lose most of . I have experimented with continually adding water but found it had no noticeable effect on the edge and shaving performance or feel.
