My first honing project

Hello Everybody;

So actually I have more like 2 projects. The main one is the honing of a Boker Silver Steel that was completely ruined by a bad professional when he used a power wheel to sharpen my SR. You can check my post on this forum for the complete story and pictures if you want. http://straightrazorpalace.com/begin...eel-sharp.html

Since I have no experience honing, before I get my hands on the Boker I want to try with a Gold Dollar just so I get used to the hones.

What I have:

Norton 220 /1000 combo stone
Norton 4000 / 8000 combo stone
Norton lapping stone
Yellow lake natural stone rated at around 12000 k
Chromium Oxide on balsa wood
Magnifying glass
Leather strop.

Condition of the Gold Dollar (confirmed by a pro):

The GD is straight. No twisted spine.
The stabilizers have been grinded.
Over all the GD is in good condition to be honed.

My first questions are:

1) How should I prepare the Norton Stones. They are bran new. How many laps should I do with the lapping stones?

2) How long should I soak the stones before I use them?

3) To set the bevel on the 1000? should I use circular motion or X stroke?

4) When do I know that the GD has the correct bevel, after the 1000, and is ready for the 4000

5) When to go from 4000 to 8000 to 12000

Thanks a lot for any info you can give me.

Here you go, from Lynn, itself: https://youtu.be/.

By the way, if you search Lynn Abrams and GSSixgun on YouTube you'll find videos on most such subjects, but they are especially helpful on honing. Good luck! As with everything shaving, take your time!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Haroldg48

Here you go, from Lynn, itself: https://youtu.be/.

By the way, if you search Lynn Abrams and GSSixgun on YouTube you'll find videos on most such subjects, but they are especially helpful on honing. Good luck! As with everything shaving, take your time!

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Thanks, I ll definitively have a look at all the videos.

I guess all honing techniques are the sames independently of who made them

Actually they are similar, but there are many varieties of techniques that many use. You need to find one that you're comfortable with. The one I linked earlier is specific to lapping Norton stones.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Icarusflies

Thanks, I ll definitively have a look at all the videos.

I guess all honing techniques are the sames independently of who made them

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Icarusflies

My first questions are:

1) How should I prepare the Norton Stones. They are bran new. How many laps should I do with the lapping stones?

2) How long should I soak the stones before I use them?

3) To set the bevel on the 1000? should I use circular motion or X stroke?

4) When do I know that the GD has the correct bevel, after the 1000, and is ready for the 4000

5) When to go from 4000 to 8000 to 12000

Thanks a lot for any info you can give me.

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Response to question 2: Norton hones I believe need about 10 to 15 minutes minimum but you can soak them a lot longer without any ill effects.

Response to question 3: Circles are useful for rapid metal removal if needed but at some point on the 1k you should switch over to X strokes to get rid of the circular scratch marks on the blade and establish nice linear striations on the bevel. X strokes are going to be your bread and butter strokes through the progression of the stones practice them well, with even pressure and blade sitting flat with contact on hone toe to heel. This is somewhat challenging for the beginner because many times there is a tendency to lift the toe off the hone until you muscles get used to this stroke. Keep your elbow in line with your wrist don't let it drop or the pressure will start to favor the heel end of the razor and or toe may start to lift. mark your bevel with a permanent marker and observe that your taking off the ink as you hone evenly and completely this indicates your stroke is good.

Response to Question 4: Now this is a little tougher to explain when both faces of your bevel meet at a complete apex along the whole blade this is the foundation of your edge. Keep checking with magnification looking down at the edge not the sides, that your edge is complete without reflections of light on the edge itself. Reflections or intermittent bright spots indicate flat spots and the edge is not completely formed continue until these disappear. Many ways to check if bevel is set but are somewhat subjective imo. thumb pad test basically feel the edge and see if it wants to dig into your thumb. See if your razor is able to cut arm hair at the skin level. Thumb nail tests used by barbers of old. Wetting your thumb nail and drawing the edge at an angle to see if it bites into the nail and not skip off. Some people cut into cherry tomatoes lol. Im sure more competent people than I will chime in with better responses on this one.

Response to question 5: After a proper bevel is achieved, and I cant stress enough this is the most important part, everything else is just polishing and refining the edge. Move on to your 4k and do x strokes until all the 1k striations on the bevel are gone and now you see a much finer scratch pattern. Check with magnification along the way that the stria are even an complete to the edge and all chips if any are removed. Then to the 8K same procedure remove the stria observe the new striation keep you honing pressure light not so light that you lose control but just enough. After 8k you can have a shave ready edge but move on to your finishing stone with light strokes and complete your razor strop thoroughly and test shave to see how you did.

This is just a basic overview of the process its just something that you will have to start doing and build an understanding of the things that will be discussed combined with the instruction from the videos you will watch. I'm sure more experienced guys will chime in with a myriad of recommendations. Keep an open mind be patient because your first few tries may not go as planned. Don't be discouraged you can do this.

I wish you good luck:gl:

Attachment 215541
Take a look at that hone wear required to get a nice straight even bevel and ask yourself...

Do you feel lucky? Well do ya punk? Haha all jokes aside the whole project of making that GD shaveable took +/- 30 hours...

Not all them are like that. That isn't the point I am making. I am simply saying some gold dollars can be a battle. Three things can happen then.

1. You know true frustration and disappointment when you think it's your fault you can't get it to shave.

2. When you do actually get it honed and all the time is put in. You feel like a boss. Like since you did that. What the heck is a Dovo anyways... Anyone can hone one of those.

3. You walk away in defeat, with a heart full of despair and a gold dollar in the garbage can... Off to fiery hell where it can't torment anyone else.

And on a final note!

Good luck with the honing brother :gl

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razorfaust

Response to question 2: Norton hones I believe need about 10 to 15 minutes minimum but you can soak them a lot longer without any ill effects.

Response to question 3: Circles are useful for rapid metal removal if needed but at some point on the 1k you should switch over to X strokes to get rid of the circular scratch marks on the blade and establish nice linear striations on the bevel. X strokes are going to be your bread and butter strokes through the progression of the stones practice them well, with even pressure and blade sitting flat with contact on hone toe to heel. This is somewhat challenging for the beginner because many times there is a tendency to lift the toe off the hone until you muscles get used to this stroke. Keep your elbow in line with your wrist don't let it drop or the pressure will start to favor the heel end of the razor and or toe may start to lift. mark your bevel with a permanent marker and observe that your taking off the ink as you hone evenly and completely this indicates your stroke is good.

Response to Question 4: Now this is a little tougher to explain when both faces of your bevel meet at a complete apex along the whole blade this is the foundation of your edge. Keep checking with magnification looking down at the edge not the sides, that your edge is complete without reflections of light on the edge itself. Reflections or intermittent bright spots indicate flat spots and the edge is not completely formed continue until these disappear. Many ways to check if bevel is set but are somewhat subjective imo. thumb pad test basically feel the edge and see if it wants to dig into your thumb. See if your razor is able to cut arm hair at the skin level. Thumb nail tests used by barbers of old. Wetting your thumb nail and drawing the edge at an angle to see if it bites into the nail and not skip off. Some people cut into cherry tomatoes lol. Im sure more competent people than I will chime in with better responses on this one.

Response to question 5: After a proper bevel is achieved, and I cant stress enough this is the most important part, everything else is just polishing and refining the edge. Move on to your 4k and do x strokes until all the 1k striations on the bevel are gone and now you see a much finer scratch pattern. Check with magnification along the way that the stria are even an complete to the edge and all chips if any are removed. Then to the 8K same procedure remove the stria observe the new striation keep you honing pressure light not so light that you lose control but just enough. After 8k you can have a shave ready edge but move on to your finishing stone with light strokes and complete your razor strop thoroughly and test shave to see how you did.

This is just a basic overview of the process its just something that you will have to start doing and build an understanding of the things that will be discussed combined with the instruction from the videos you will watch. I'm sure more experienced guys will chime in with a myriad of recommendations. Keep an open mind be patient because your first few tries may not go as planned. Don't be discouraged you can do this.

I wish you good luck:gl:

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Thank you very much for taking the time to write this complete and very useful information. I will definitely put it in practice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER

Attachment 215541
Take a look at that hone wear required to get a nice straight even bevel and ask yourself...

Do you feel lucky? Well do ya punk? Haha all jokes aside the whole project of making that GD shaveable took +/- 30 hours...

Not all them are like that. That isn't the point I am making. I am simply saying some gold dollars can be a battle. Three things can happen then.

1. You know true frustration and disappointment when you think it's your fault you can't get it to shave.

2. When you do actually get it honed and all the time is put in. You feel like a boss. Like since you did that. What the heck is a Dovo anyways... Anyone can hone one of those.

3. You walk away in defeat, with a heart full of despair and a gold dollar in the garbage can... Off to fiery hell where it can't torment anyone else.

And on a final note!

Good luck with the honing brother :gl

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Yes, I read that GD are not the easiest to hone but I rather try with my US$ 15 GD than with my US$ 300 Wacker. I ll keep well in mind that if someting goes wrong is not me and I ll blame the Chinese....;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Icarusflies

Thank you very much for taking the time to write this complete and very useful information. I will definitely put it in practice.

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Although I hope its useful, its far from complete " The Devil is in the details" as they say. I'm sure Euclid will come in and fill in the gaps. Just start and see where it leads you. you might get stuck, you will post and hopefully the good people here will get you through.

Hello All;

I haven´t started yes with the honing. Still waiting for the hones to arrive. But I have another question.

Can I do an irreparable damage to my SR when setting the bevel with the 1000?

Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Icarusflies

Hello All;

I haven´t started yes with the honing. Still waiting for the hones to arrive. But I have another question.

Can I do an irreparable damage to my SR when setting the bevel with the 1000?

Thanks

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Probably not irreparable damage but you can waste a lot of steel. On the gold dollar you're getting I'm going to say no, use it as a guinea pig. Do you know what you're looking for test wise in a bevel set?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER

Probably not irreparable damage but you can waste a lot of steel. On the gold dollar you're getting I'm going to say no, use it as a guinea pig. Do you know what you're looking for test wise in a bevel set?

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Thanks for the answer.

As far as the test that I am going to use to see if the bevel is properly set I think I am going to use the Cherry Tomato Test (slicing the skin of the tomato)....It looks like to me that at my stage it is the more objective one.

Any other test you can recommend to know if the bevel is correctly set?

I can't see that anyone answered question 1. Draw a grid on the hone with a pencil, each square about a CM square. You can draw the lines freehand really; they don't need to be 100% straight but it probably is helpful to use a ruler.

Soak the hone for about 15 minutes. lap the hone by rubbing the lapping stone over the hone in a figure eight pattern. You'll notice the pencil lines starting to wear off. You'll notice that they wear off unevenly as some parts won't be touched by the hone as it won't be even. Keep rubbing until all the lines are gone. make sure you wash the hone thoroughly afterwards; you don't want particles of the lapping stone left on the hone.

This is how I do it but others may have other ideas. Hope this helps...

Carl

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Icarusflies

Thanks for the answer.

As far as the test that I am going to use to see if the bevel is properly set I think I am going to use the Cherry Tomato Test (slicing the skin of the tomato)....It looks like to me that at my stage it is the more objective one.

Any other test you can recommend to know if the bevel is correctly set?

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I've never heard of the Cherry Tomato Test, that must be a new one :-)
I think the best test to see if the bevel is set is to look at the razor. Seriously, I think closely viewing the edge is a pretty good way. Also, play very very close attention to the pool of water being pushed across the hone by the razor's edge, it'll be pushed very evenly with an even bevel.

Yeah the tomato thing was started by a razor honer/restorer called Doc Shaver. If you want to try it I would immediately rinse and wipe the blade as the tomato acid might promote rust. here is a video of it if your curious.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Utfg9VZTVVY
I myself don't use this method and have trained to my thumb to know when its sharp enough. I also confirm with edge inspection with loupe or scope as well as arm hair shaving. It will take some practice to know when the bevel is right so take your time.

That is the one...The salad maker test...

What do I need to look for when I inspect with a loupe?

I'd also suggest the thumb nail test. It's very reliable once learned! As to what to look for in the loupe I cannot answer as I rarely use magnification and just hone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

I can't see that anyone answered question 1. Draw a grid on the hone with a pencil, each square about a CM square. You can draw the lines freehand really; they don't need to be 100% straight but it probably is helpful to use a ruler.

Soak the hone for about 15 minutes. lap the hone by rubbing the lapping stone over the hone in a figure eight pattern. You'll notice the pencil lines starting to wear off. You'll notice that they wear off unevenly as some parts won't be touched by the hone as it won't be even. Keep rubbing until all the lines are gone. make sure you wash the hone thoroughly afterwards; you don't want particles of the lapping stone left on the hone.

This is how I do it but others may have other ideas. Hope this helps...

Carl

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Thank you Carl;

I ll definitively do that.

Steve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Icarusflies

That is the one...The salad maker test...

What do I need to look for when I inspect with a loupe?

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Maybe this link will help you with the visual cues. http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...ml#post1542722

Hope it helps

Lap your stones on a piece of 325 Wet & Dry, on a dollar store cookie sheet, it will be a lot faster and less messy than the Norton lapping stone.

Mark the grid as said and remove it 3-4 times spinning the stone 180 degrees each time. Make sure to round or bevel the edges.

Do look at the My first honing attempt thread. The Cherry Tomato test will tell you if your razor will cut tomatoes, but not much else. You need to know if the, complete edge is straight and chip free and that you are honing all the way to the edge.

A visual test is the most conclusive test, then remove the stria from the previous stone with each stone in the progression. The goal is a straight edge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razorfaust

Maybe this link will help you with the visual cues. http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...ml#post1542722

Hope it helps

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Great, thanks a lot

Well noted, thanks.

I just got the Norton Stones on the mail 10 min ago....

I ll do a review of all the info that you guys posted and have a go....I ll let you know

Thanks again

You got a lot of great tips here on this thread, one thing I would recommend is continue to stay active and post your pictures of ur end if u can... Pictures of the bevel and edge say ally and that's learned how to hone razors from this community and meet-ups!

Your idea about practicing on a gold dollar is exactly what I did, I bought several of the, because I ruined them one way or another learning to hone... And it would have hurt me so much more if that was my Ralf Aust... Make sure you keep at it! One thing I was doing was honing for a couple hours at a time and it would just turn into me making a mistake on a stroke just because I was not as sharp when first started... (Pun intended)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dafonz6987

You got a lot of great tips here on this thread, one thing I would recommend is continue to stay active and post your pictures of ur end if u can... Pictures of the bevel and edge say ally and that's learned how to hone razors from this community and meet-ups!

Your idea about practicing on a gold dollar is exactly what I did, I bought several of the, because I ruined them one way or another learning to hone... And it would have hurt me so much more if that was my Ralf Aust... Make sure you keep at it! One thing I was doing was honing for a couple hours at a time and it would just turn into me making a mistake on a stroke just because I was not as sharp when first started... (Pun intended)

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At the moment I am gathering all the info I can. When I start I ll post before and after pictures of the SR.....

Yep! That's exactly what I did.... But I got a 100x magnification microscope on Craigslist for $10 I can get pictures with it by holding the phone in the right spot on the eye piece, it's a pain at times but for 10 bucks can't beat it, I also see ALOT of people have the veho usb microscope you can take pictures with and its $40 on eBay...

Now there are two sides to using a microscope and I'm sure someone will have more points to the anti-microscope side... It's almost like these lines we have on the thread, pro-scope anti-scope pro-GD anti-GD are almost like being republican or a democrat and ur supposed to avoid talking about politics hahaha but jokes aside im pro scope, being able to see scratch patterns is nice because I gotta see if I removed the last stones scratches before moving on. If you don't you'll be banging ur head against the wall on why it's chipping on the finisher... Keep in mind at first your ur not going to know what to look for other then not having Chips on the edge and sometimes even though it might look like s chip the size of the moon it really probably isn't... (When I'd be wondering if I should care I just throw a strand of hair down with as refrence). But once I took pictures of the same spot on the blade before i start using the next stone, that was really the game changer for me at least... Instead of speculation and taking educated guesses on what I was doing wrong, I actually had a bunch of people tell me exactly what I did wrong almost as if they were sitting right next to me the whole time... Come to think of it that was the last time I posted questions about honing, so that says something I think...

I know this wasn't part of your questions but I figured u were basically trying to get better at honing so I figured I would throw this in... I hope it helps! And good luck!

Hello all;

I have seen in honing videos that some people while doing the X pattern stroke they put some pressure on the bevel using one finger that they will slide lengthwise of the the SR as it moves across the hone.

This looks a good method to avoid lifting the toe / heel?

What is your take on this?

Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Lap your stones on a piece of 325 Wet & Dry, on a dollar store cookie sheet, it will be a lot faster and less messy than the Norton lapping stone.

Mark the grid as said and remove it 3-4 times spinning the stone 180 degrees each time. Make sure to round or bevel the edges.

Do look at the My first honing attempt thread. The Cherry Tomato test will tell you if your razor will cut tomatoes, but not much else. You need to know if the, complete edge is straight and chip free and that you are honing all the way to the edge.

A visual test is the most conclusive test, then remove the stria from the previous stone with each stone in the progression. The goal is a straight edge.

---

Do you mean that you have to go through the motion of erasing a grid 3 to 4 times?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Icarusflies

Hello all;

I have seen in honing videos that some people while doing the X pattern stroke they put some pressure on the bevel using one finger that they will slide lengthwise of the the SR as it moves across the hone.

This looks a good method to avoid lifting the toe / heel?

What is your take on this?

Thanks

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Icarusflies

Do you mean that you have to go through the motion of erasing a grid 3 to 4 times?

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Honestly I used a two hand stroke for some time, but when u use it according to glen ur supposed to not be applying pressure and only using ur right hand to guide he stroke... the reason I think and I'll be corrected if wrong.. The reasoning you don't apply pressure is because when using an x stroke your focus and light pressure should go from heel to toe and watching the sarf being pushed down the length of the razor....

What I think he was saying is draw a grid with pencil on your stone and lap it with some sand paper and flat surface... Then repeat the 3-4 times turning the stone 180 to ensure the the hone is perfectly flat...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dafonz6987

Honestly I used a two hand stroke for some time, but when u use it according to glen ur supposed to not be applying pressure and only using ur right hand to guide he stroke... the reason I think and I'll be corrected if wrong.. The reasoning you don't apply pressure is because when using an x stroke your focus and light pressure should go from heel to toe and watching the sarf being pushed down the length of the razor....

What I think he was saying is draw a grid with pencil on your stone and lap it with some sand paper and flat surface... Then repeat the 3-4 times turning the stone 180 to ensure the the hone is perfectly flat...

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I'm thinking and it ain't written in stone. Hahah... Lame I know. That unless doing a rolling x you want pressure even across the edge.
That is what I was taught.

So they are different techniques, for different problems.

The X stroke will by its nature will cause a bit of extra pressure on the toe and is a good stroke to ensure the toe gets honed properly.

Using two hands can be done with and without pressure, and is a technique that has to be calibrated to your hands and the amount of pressure you apply.

Generally a two handed grip, is used in the lower grits and single hand in higher grits when a very lite pressure is needed and wanted.

You will have to experiment to see results for yourself, this is where magnification and looking at the bevel will show you the results of your technique. Generally new honers use either too much or too little pressure, too much the most common.

Pressure is one of those things that is impossible to translate into words, except, more or less.

On the stone lapping, yes mark and erase the grid repeatedly, to ensure that the slurry is not washing off the pencil and that you are actually abrading the stone. Once the stone is flat, a subsequent grid will come off quickly. Spine the stone 180 degrees to ensure a level and flat stone face.

Use a soft lead pencil, flat thick lead lumber pencils work great.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

So they are different techniques, for different problems.

The X stroke will by its nature will cause a bit of extra pressure on the toe and is a good stroke to ensure the toe gets honed properly.

Using two hands can be done with and without pressure, and is a technique that has to be calibrated to your hands and the amount of pressure you apply.

Generally a two handed grip, is used in the lower grits and single hand in higher grits when a very lite pressure is needed and wanted.

You will have to experiment to see results for yourself, this is where magnification and looking at the bevel will show you the results of your technique. Generally new honers use either too much or too little pressure, too much the most common.

Pressure is one of those things that is impossible to translate into words, except, more or less.

On the stone lapping, yes mark and erase the grid repeatedly, to ensure that the slurry is not washing off the pencil and that you are actually abrading the stone. Once the stone is flat, a subsequent grid will come off quickly. Spine the stone 180 degrees to ensure a level and flat stone face.

Use a soft lead pencil, flat thick lead lumber pencils work great.

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Thanks for the info.

One other detail that might cause you concern is that the 4000 side of the Norton might have to be lapped to remove a lot more material than what is required just to get it flat.
If, while honing with it, you find it feels like there are odd feeling chunks or hard spots in the hone then you need to remove more material in order to get to the "good stuff".
It is not unusual to remove 1/16" or more from the surface of the 4000 side while the 8000 side usually will require less material removal.
Also while using the hones you will find that their surfaces will become gray and feel like they are glazed over with contamination.
Give them brief lapping to clean the surface and they will cut like new again.
Keep the hones wet with a squirt bottle of water.
When I read of a newbie using several hundred strokes on a hone and still not getting the desired result I think the contaminated hone is usually a factor.
Good luck and sweet shaves to ya!

Just finished my first attempt at honing the GD.

The bevel looks nice, mirror like, and the spine has a uniform erosion.

Maybe the bevel is thicker on one side more than the other. Could it be because the GD geometry?

As far as shave rediness...It is sharp in some places of the bevel more than in others. It will pass the hanging hair test at the center of the razor but not at the extremities.

I don´t think I can shave comfortably with it but it was my first attempt.

When I have some more free time I give it another go with the hones.

Not uncommon for a GD.

Does it sit flat on the hone, bevel and spine? And are the stabilizers hitting the stone?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Not uncommon for a GD.

Does it sit flat on the hone, bevel and spine? And are the stabilizers hitting the stone?

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Yes, actually it sits flat on the four corners. The stabilizers have been grinded with a dremel.

As I said, one of the sides of the bevel is ¨thicker¨ than the other if that makes any sense. I tried to even it by applying more force on the thinner side but no success. Could this be because of a ¨problem¨ with the spine on that side being too thick which would affect the angel or is purely my technique?

Thanks

Yea, uneven grind or ground, off center, (the edge is not in the center of the spine), or both, are common GD issues.

The only way to correct it is to re grind the spine, maybe not worth the effort if you get can get a good bevel.

The width or evenness, of the bevels, doesn’t matter as long as it takes an edge. It is just an aesthetic thing, if it bothers you, grind the thick spots of the spine until you get a bevels you want. A lot of work, and it will not improve the edge at all.

Thanks....I ll have another go and at least I get some practice at honing.

If you are going to try and straighten out the spine on the GD, you might want to look at the 140 grit diamond plate at Chefs Knives to Go for 30 bucks. It will cut some steel fast. Also is a good lapping plate to get a stone flat. They also have a 400/1k plate for about 35 that is a nice stone finishing plate.

If you are grinding a lot off the spine, tapeing the edge might be a good idea so you have an even straight edge to work with, once the spine is more even.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

If you are going to try and straighten out the spine on the GD, you might want to look at the 140 grit diamond plate at Chefs Knives to Go for 30 bucks. It will cut some steel fast. Also is a good lapping plate to get a stone flat. They also have a 400/1k plate for about 35 that is a nice stone finishing plate.

If you are grinding a lot off the spine, tapeing the edge might be a good idea so you have an even straight edge to work with, once the spine is more even.

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I think the spine is straight. When I put it on a flat surface the four courners are stabel.

The impression that I have is that maybe one side of the spine is thicker than the other one therefore affecting the angel of the bevel. As mentioned earlier that does not affect the sharpness of the bevel.

Next week I have another go.

Thanks for the replay.