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Quick questions for the honemiesters! I have a little over a years worth of experience honing my razors on a norton, but never took the plunge to purchase a polishing stone. The norton's always worked decently well...but I want to up the quality of my edge. Given this I am a newb to using and understanding the Coticule and Escher. Just wanted to get a sense from you guys which one you would recommend and what grit is appropriate...
If this has been discussed before....my apologies
Thanks
JR
JR,
Talk about opening a can of worms!!! You've asked the straight razor equivalent of "Which one of your kids do you love best?".
This is MY OPINION only, so take it for what it's worth. I have owned both and now only own one. I'll not say which because I truely believe it does not matter. FOR ME (YMMV) both the coticule and escher produce comparable edges, and yes, the edge produced is remarkably better than if you stop with an 8K Norton. Chose one, buy it, use it, love it. If you've got the sickness as bad as most you'll probably own both at some point in the future. Me, I'm trying to stay (somewhat) minimalist...yeah, enough comments from the peanut gallery. So, because I did not find a real need for both, I sold one.
I'll now don my asbestos underwear...flame on!
Just another data point,
Ed
I dpn't have an escher yet so I cannot compare, but a coticule is liked by a lot of honemeisters and forgers.
But another argument that may or may not be important: you can actually buy a coticule from howard for a reasonable price.
Buying an escher will set you back a couple of hundreds unless you manage to find one at a flea market.
Ed/Bruno - Thanks for the advice. I'll prob start with the coticule to keep costs to a minimum. I just wanted to make sure that the escher wasn't a significant step up in the quality of the edge it delivers.
Ed- You can love all your children the same, but some love comes with a loss of hair and a headache! :D
JR
Notice that Ed carefully avoided telling us which of his children he decided to sell... :D
I haven't purchased an esher, probably never will, but I love my coticule. I got a tiny 4"x1.2" coticule from Howard. Even though I haven't had much practice with it yet, I can detect a major difference between an edge done with the 8K and chromium oxide paste vs. one finished on the coticule before going to chromium oxide. I was shocked, actually. I could have picked out the 8K edge in a blind shave-test.
Mine was only about $40; the $18 rubbing stone is nearly as big as it. I love small hones that fit in your hand.
Josh
Thanks Josh - I currently go from the 8k to a 3/1/0.5 pasted paddle strop. Sounds like adding the coticule in the mix should really take the blade to that next level. Do you recommend going from coticule to the 0.5 paste?
If you're going to a 1 micron abrasive before going to the .5 micron then you're getting the benefits already, or at least most of the benefits.
The 3 micron abrasive is the same grit as the 8k Norton. It's redundant when doing a full honing - save it for refreshes.
Again, I haven't been using my coticule for very long, but I have noticed a difference when I use it before going to a pasted paddle. The edges I mentioned earlier were finished with 1 micron diamond and .5 micron chromium oxide on a balsa strop.
In theory, I agree with mparker, since 1 micron is in the 12K to 15K range, if I recall correctly. I'm thinking that maybe the coticule does more smoothing than the 1 micron diamond paste does.
My face is very picky, though, and most guys probably wouldn't notice a difference. Or it might have been a bad hone job on the Norton razor--lots of possible variables.
Good luck,
Josh
4K / 8K, coticule, 15K Shapton, hanging strop. Mighty fine indeed. Never tried the chromium oxide.
Monte
A light touch on the 15k Shapton will frequently get you an edge that's comparable to what you'll get from chrome oxide. And according to Chris Moss the 30k Shapton will get you an edge that's comparable to a Feather. There's no way I can justify the prices for an Escher given that a 30k Shapton glassstone is in the ballpark.
No, no, no, I did not just read this. There's no way I can buy a $600 hone right now, what with remodeling the home and all...Quote:
Originally Posted by mparker762
No way.
Dang.
Josh
You're in luck. $280 for a 30k (0.48 micron) Shapton Glassstone. And that's a day-1 feather, not some lame day-5 feather.
I usually go from the Norton 8k to the Coticule or even one of Tony's Eifel/Hunsruck hones. Both give a great edge that is very velvety. The Eifel/Hunsruck hone gets you there faster. In the interest of full disclosure I do work for Tony.
I almost never use pasted strops anymore on my personal shavers.
Regards,
EL
*banging head on desk*Quote:
Originally Posted by mparker762
EL, how would you compare the Hunsrueck and Coticule? More or less the same? I have the Hunsrueck and I'm really pleased with the edges it gives, but since I can't leave well enough alone, I still have visions of a coticule dancing in my head. Would that be seriously redundant? ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by elbonator
Jordan
Is the 30K Shapton going to do something that .25 micron diamond paste won't do?Quote:
Originally Posted by mparker762
Just askin'.
I dunno. I don't own one myself. But I've never heard anybody claim that 1/4 micron diamond will get you a day-1 feather edge, whereas at least two experienced members have attested to the 1/2 micron Shapton ability to pull off this feat.
Jordon,Quote:
Originally Posted by jnich67
They produce the same edge IMHO. The Hunsrueck is a harder stone but has the same grit and cutting agent content per Tony. My experiements agree with that. Tiny microgarnets are what do the polishing in both stones, the Hunrueck is faster because there is higher garnet content.
I still collect Belgians and when I have ample time I'll use one of them for touching up my razors. I have a great nostalgic attachment to them because as a kid starting out my barber drilled it into me that they were the pinnacle of hones. When I finally got my hands on one it was like I had achieved a lifelong dream. So I just like them alot but the reality is that the Hunsrueck and Eschers are just as good. Hope that helps.
Regards,
EL
I have heard at least one person refer to the diamond finished edge as feather-like. I can't confirm because I've never used a feather and probably never will. The diamond polished edges I've used were way too sharp for me and caused a lot of irritation so if feathers are even sharper there's not point for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by mparker762
Regards,
EL
If the 0.25 micron diamond will pull it off then that's probably the way to go unless you just really dislike paddles. I never got new-feather levels of of sharp out of my 0.25 micron paddle, though the 15k Shapton followed by a good stropping on newsprint would frequently do it. I just ordered some 0.1 micron diamond to try, and I've got some more vellum on the way as well. I'll get back with the forum in a week or so with the results.
That's gonna be mighty sharp. You be filleting hairs and then filleting the fillets.Quote:
Originally Posted by mparker762
Regards,
EL
That's a good description of day-1 feather sharp. It's pretty spooky, even after you're used to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by elbonator
I have yet to try this newsprint thing. Nor have I really tried diamond. (I just use coticule and chrome oxide for refreshes.) From what I understand diamond is hella sharp, but sometimes harsh depending on your skin type. Is the newsprint smoother?Quote:
Originally Posted by mparker762
If I remember Papabull's advice, you take three sheets and wrap 'em tight around a hone. Right?
One sheet will do it, you'll get 3-5 layers wrapped around by the time you're done.
Newsprint produces a very smooth edge. But on some razors it also produces a duller edge, and I can't really figure out a rhyme or reason why. Some of my favorite razors get dull on newsprint, and some of my really mediocre shavers become stars. I'm hoping 0.1 micron diamond will do the same thing as newsprint but be more consistent about it.
I'm pretty certain its the black ink doing the work. I've tried blank or colored sections of the newspaper and they don't seem to do a thing. I've tried the free weekly papers with the white-on-black ads for local musical acts and they consistently dull the edge, but around here they are printed on heavier paper than the daily paper so that may be the problem. I've tried plain carbon black on newspaper and got insane results *once* and was never able to repeat it again <sob>. Besides the consistency issue, the other problem with newsprint is that a sheet is only good for one or two uses, and I don't take the newspaper so it's kind of annoying.
You know, the times I've tried this I think I used pages with color photographs on them. I'll have to revisit this and do some experimenting.
Josh
I'm partial to the classifieds. This is probably the highest ink:space ratio in the entire paper, except for B/W photos.