A littel quality time touching up the rotation on the 12K

Just a quick picture of the touched up line up. Spent a little time refreshing these three. Little more than a touch up on the Dovo. Left to right: Dovo (with my home made scale as the factory one cracked at the pin), Ralph Aust, and Charles Congreve (Sheffield 1829 - 1843) which I bought from Badgister in the classifieds (a great shaver).

The Dovo needs more work - some time ago my wife knocked it off the stand while it was drying and put a chip in the blade. It didn't feel right and under magnification I could see the damage. Had to go back to the 1K Naniwa to grind out the chip, and then worked it on the Norton 4/8 and up to the 12K Naniwa but it's not back to where I want it. I finish them all on CO pasted felt. It has a sharp edge - passes the hanging hair test but it still feels pretty harsh on the face. Maybe it just doesn't like my Naniwa 12K? Both of the other razors love the 12K - the Aust is incredibly sharp and I have a slice healing up nicely on my ear to prove it!

Adam
Attachment 220552

Nice set of razors,, keep up the good work.

Nice rotation! I do the same thing- touch up my blades on a rotation so they never get dull to the point of needing rehoning.

I have a couple more in the rotation, but just worked on these three. The Dovo is still giving me fits. I had to take it back to bevel set and work out a chip I mentioned above - and just can't seems to get back to a comfortable shave. It looks good under magnification, passes the HHT but just feels like crap on a shave.

Adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ernie1980

Nice rotation! I do the same thing- touch up my blades on a rotation so they never get dull to the point of needing rehoning.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by aalbina

I have a couple more in the rotation, but just worked on these three. The Dovo is still giving me fits. I had to take it back to bevel set and work out a chip I mentioned above - and just can't seems to get back to a comfortable shave. It looks good under magnification, passes the HHT but just feels like crap on a shave.

Adam

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I struggled with my Dovo for a couple months...

Now it's the best razor I've got hands down shave wise. Keep at it and eventually it will submit to your efforts!

Any suggestions? What finally worked for you on the Dove

Adam

Well I don't own any water stones, only a 1k king. So make sure the bevel is set. That is all I can give you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER

Well I don't own any water stones, only a 1k king. So make sure the bevel is set. That is all I can give you.

---

OK - well getting the bevel set is certainly great advice! It's all down hill from there. When I set the bevel on my Naniwa 1K - it was shaving arm hair quite well -even from the 4 to the 8 to the 12 it was popping arm hair. Then the CO. The first shave was passable but the second shave was very uncomfortable. Same brush, same soap, same stropping. I didn't strop on the linen after the stones on the first shave - just the leather, but did strop on the linen and the leather before the next shave. Maybe it was just a bad shave day - I'll pull it out tomorrow and strop and give it a go.

Thanks

Adam

So the other two were touched up, the Dovo is not a touch up, it is a repair with a full bevel reset, if you approach it as a tough up, you probably will not have a shaving razor.

The bevel has probably not been fully set, you probably need to spend some time on the 4k and set the bevel completely. Look at the edge straight down and depending on what you see, set the bevel, if you still have chips, go to the 1k. Make sure your stones are lapped and the edges are beveled or rounded.

Here is a recent thread doing just that.

Yes - I followed that thread. The Dovo was repaired with a full bevel reset several months ago and was shaving pretty well after that. (Not as well as when I got back from Lynn for the free re-hone). This is a new razor - I bought it last year from SRD. Stones are lapped and the edges are beveled. I will check the bevel and do so more work on the 4K before progressing up. May be able to get some pictures of the edge on my microscope but I usually use a handheld unit when honing. I don't really feel like spending 80 on a USB microscope when I have a nice one. It's just not top lit - made for scientific work on slides. I will see if I can get some LED lighting on the edge from above.

Thanks

Adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

So the other two were touched up, the Dovo is not a touch up, it is a repair with a full bevel reset, if you approach it as a tough up, you probably will not have a shaving razor.

The bevel has probably not been fully set, you probably need to spend some time on the 4k and set the bevel completely. Look at the edge straight down and depending on what you see, set the bevel, if you still have chips, go to the 1k. Make sure your stones are lapped and the edges are beveled or rounded.

Here is a recent thread doing just that.

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Alan, If I understand your post correctly your complaint is not in sharpness but in the comfort area of the shave.
I think you are shaving with a toothy edge.
I will share with you my method of resolving this issue.
I use a small, highly polished, flat piece of Montana agate to assist my honing efforts.
When I get close to the bevel set I use the polished flat of the agate to rub down the edge using a single pass withvery light pressure at a 90 degree angle to the blade to flatten out and polish any roughness on the edge.
Its like breadknifing, except the ever so slightly flattened edge will now be very shiny due to the use of the polished rubbing stone.
Then I use a bright light and maneuver the edge until you can see the reflection of the flattened edge. The first rub will likely produce an intermittent reflection because of the toothy edge and the fact that the bevel hasn't been fully and evenly set along its length.
I rub/polish the edge and hone the polished edge off until the bevel has been fully any evenly set and switch to a finishing type of stroke on the hone.
For finishing I use a light pressure and a stroke that resembles the digit 6 on the end of the hone nearest you and reverse this stroke on the other end of the hone. (start on the inside of the 6, make a circle, and finish the "tail" with a sort of swoop)
For me this stroke keeps deep parallel groves from forming on the bevel which can cause a rough edge.
My eyesight has deteriorated through the years and now I need reading glasses for up close work and find that with some practice and the reading glasses I can see even the finest reflection on an edge and keep honing just until that is gone.
When the reflection is totally gone from the edge it is time to move on to the next hone.
Each hone past bevel set receives this light pressure using the figure 6 stroke and repeat until the reflection is gone and evidence of the coarse marks on the bevel from the previous hone has been removed.
Each honing using the next finer hone starts with light pressure and end using a very light pressure.
When stopping very soon after the reflection is gone the wire edge or over honing is prevented.
I think Glenn referred to not over honing as "sneaking up on the edge"
Trust that with nothing more than my reading glasses if I very, very, carefully turn and twist the razor looking for the slightest trace of a reflection on the edge and find absolutely none after coming off the Naniwa 12,000, the resulting invisible edge will be incredibly sharp and be as free from teeth as I can get it.
I don't use a thumpad test, arm hair, hanging hair, or any other test for sharpness as this method works very well for me.
Personally I have been going from the Naniwa 12,000 directly to the linen and then to the leather strop but a few careful strokes on the CO would possibly be beneficial as well.
I am very careful when stropping this edge as it is delicate.
A rough and fast technique on the strops will cause issues that could be avoided.
As is the case with any razor that I have honed, the first shave is done with extra caution. After a couple shaves with 30 careful passes on linen followed by 50 gentle passes on leather the edge breaks in giving an incredibly satisfying shave.
This technique has worked very well for me and I hope that if you choose to try it, that you will be as successful with it as I have been.

This technique has worked well for me on very hard steel that has a tendency to microchip.

That is not uncommon for an edge to break down, after repair, if it was not fully set.

Not enough time was spent on the 1k to fully set the bevel. What you did was not a regular honing or a touch up, it was a repair with a full bevel set and is completely different from a regular honing where the bevels already exist.

This is not uncommon for new honers, and when you do this kind of honing the importance of a full bevel set cannot be overlooked. Especially if you are in a hurry to get an edge on it.

So with all the finish honing you have done on this razor the bevels are probably now pretty flat and in the proper angle/alignment, you just need to get them to meet fully.

It should not take too much to get there, look at the edge and then set it on the 4k, you will have to do less polishing on the 8k.

USB scopes are nice for teaching or taking photos but useless for honing. I never use them except to teach, So we are looking at the same thing. I use a 60X $2 lighted loupe, mostly for honing.

Thank you for the great description of your technique! That took a lot of your time and I am grateful for the time spent.

Thanks so much.

Adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galaxy51

Alan, If I understand your post correctly your complaint is not in sharpness but in the comfort area of the shave.
I think you are shaving with a toothy edge.
I will share with you my method of resolving this issue.
I use a small, highly polished, flat piece of Montana agate to assist my honing efforts.
When I get close to the bevel set I use the polished flat of the agate to rub down the edge using a single pass withvery light pressure at a 90 degree angle to the blade to flatten out and polish any roughness on the edge.
Its like breadknifing, except the ever so slightly flattened edge will now be very shiny due to the use of the polished rubbing stone.
Then I use a bright light and maneuver the edge until you can see the reflection of the flattened edge. The first rub will likely produce an intermittent reflection because of the toothy edge and the fact that the bevel hasn't been fully and evenly set along its length.
I rub/polish the edge and hone the polished edge off until the bevel has been fully any evenly set and switch to a finishing type of stroke on the hone.
For finishing I use a light pressure and a stroke that resembles the digit 6 on the end of the hone nearest you and reverse this stroke on the other end of the hone. (start on the inside of the 6, make a circle, and finish the "tail" with a sort of swoop)
For me this stroke keeps deep parallel groves from forming on the bevel which can cause a rough edge.
My eyesight has deteriorated through the years and now I need reading glasses for up close work and find that with some practice and the reading glasses I can see even the finest reflection on an edge and keep honing just until that is gone.
When the reflection is totally gone from the edge it is time to move on to the next hone.
Each hone past bevel set receives this light pressure using the figure 6 stroke and repeat until the reflection is gone and evidence of the coarse marks on the bevel from the previous hone has been removed.
Each honing using the next finer hone starts with light pressure and end using a very light pressure.
When stopping very soon after the reflection is gone the wire edge or over honing is prevented.
I think Glenn referred to not over honing as "sneaking up on the edge"
Trust that with nothing more than my reading glasses if I very, very, carefully turn and twist the razor looking for the slightest trace of a reflection on the edge and find absolutely none after coming off the Naniwa 12,000, the resulting invisible edge will be incredibly sharp and be as free from teeth as I can get it.
I don't use a thumpad test, arm hair, hanging hair, or any other test for sharpness as this method works very well for me.
Personally I have been going from the Naniwa 12,000 directly to the linen and then to the leather strop but a few careful strokes on the CO would possibly be beneficial as well.
I am very careful when stropping this edge as it is delicate.
A rough and fast technique on the strops will cause issues that could be avoided.
As is the case with any razor that I have honed, the first shave is done with extra caution. After a couple shaves with 30 careful passes on linen followed by 50 gentle passes on leather the edge breaks in giving an incredibly satisfying shave.
This technique has worked very well for me and I hope that if you choose to try it, that you will be as successful with it as I have been.

This technique has worked well for me on very hard steel that has a tendency to microchip.

---

I've watched a lot of videos on bevel resetting - wish I had a local mentor. I think my biggest problem is knowing when the bevel is set. After re-reading through the thread you mentioned again - I will try looking down at the blade under the lighted loop - I use basically the same thing as you but it supposedly goes to 60X - to see that the edge meets all the way down the blade.

It took a lot of work on the 1K to get the Dovo chip ground out - it was a pretty good chip. In retrospect, I should have taped the spine. Didn't even think of it until I had ground away far too much. Not sure that the potentially uneven pressure on the spine may have now put the geometry in question.

Would you suggest taping this go around?

Adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

That is not uncommon for an edge to break down, after repair, if it was not fully set.

Not enough time was spent on the 1k to fully set the bevel. What you did was not a regular honing or a touch up, it was a repair with a full bevel set and is completely different from a regular honing where the bevels already exist.

This is not uncommon for new honers, and when you do this kind of honing the importance of a full bevel set cannot be overlooked. Especially if you are in a hurry to get an edge on it.

So with all the finish honing you have done on this razor the bevels are probably now pretty flat and in the proper angle/alignment, you just need to get them to meet fully.

It should not take too much to get there, look at the edge and then set it on the 4k, you will have to do less polishing on the 8k.

USB scopes are nice for teaching or taking photos but useless for honing. I never use them except to teach, So we are looking at the same thing. I use a 60X $2 lighted loupe, mostly for honing.

---

Yes, use 2 layers if you think there is a lot of hone wear. You may end up with a double bevel, but it will not hurt anything and make a thicker bevel.

After a few honing’s the double bevel will wear away and you will have a single narrower bevel.

At the slightest feel of dragging on the stone change the top layer of tape, you have burned through it.

I know it's been a while but I've had a lot going on and just got back to re-honing the Dovo 5/8. I followed your advice Euclid440 and taped the spine with 2 layers of tape (actually the spine wear wasn't so bad when I compared it to other razors that weren't new - it just looked bad because it basically had no wear prior to the bevel set.)

I started back on the 1K, freshly lapped, with Lynn's circle method then 20 straight down and back laps. Wouldn't cut arm hair. Repeated this routine 3 times checking with my thumb and arm hair - it got better but still not cutting arm hair like my others. Looked through my loop at 60x and saw the double bevel you were talking about. Noticed a bit of jagged edge all the way up and down the edge at 60x. Moved onto the 4K - tested - shaving a little better on arm hair but not up to the others. When all the 1K striations where gone I moved up to the 8 and then the 12. CO pasted strop and set her aside to for the next morning shave. Still not cutting arm hair very well at the skin level. I knew I wasn't where I needed to be but didn't understand why.

Next morning shave was pretty bad. Just not shave ready. Spent some more time here reading and came across a thread specifically asking about pressure when setting a bevel. The OP was seeing chipping on his blades at bevel set. The solution suggested was ease up on the pressure you may be flexing the blade - let the stone do it's job. Thought this could be my problem. I'm not getting the edge to cut arm hair on the 1K so I think the bevel isn't set so I'm consciously or unconsciously increasing the pressure, flexing the blade and chipping the edge. Less is more.

Last night I soaked up the stones, lapped them and started again. I went down to one strip of tape and started again with circles on the 1K, 20 laps straight up and back - very light pressure. 3 rotations of this later and still not cutting arm hair like my other razors do. Looking at the loop I see the jagged edge which I interpret now as chipping. WTF?

Thinking the hone wear is minimal I decide to skip the tape altogether. This feels better. Go through it again and - same result.

So I know that bread knifing you razor is a pretty drastic thing to do but I take a deep breath and calmly and ever so lightly run the edge over the corner of the 1K - 3 times until I see a straight line at 60x under the lighted loop. Now I start again with the gentlest of touch on the 1K, circles and 20 straight down and back, under the loop it looks good no jagged edges. Not shaving arm hair but feels grabby on the thumb. 2 more very light cycles - look down the edge under 60X and everything seems to meet all along the edge and there are no shinny spots. Shaving arm hair now but not great.

On to the lapped 4K - weight of the blade - getting into Zen mode now. Moved up to 8K when the 4K striations are gone and then to the 12K when the 8K striations are gone and finally a few light laps - CO pasted strop. Checked against arm hair again and still not shaving arm like my other razors. Plucked a goatee hair out and tried the HHT - and it cut multiple times along the same hair like a boss. WTF? Set it aside for a shave test.

Strop on leather and shave test this morning was much better than yesterday morning - smooth not grabbing and pulling, no irritation and an OK close shave. I'll have to shave a few more days with it because every razor is different and it takes me a few days to adjust my technique to get a razor shaving at its best as I go through my rotation.

So:

1. Less is more - like all the experts here say.
2. Not sure why my other razors can tree top hair on my arm and this one doesn't.
3. Not sure why this one passes the HHT equal to my other razors given 2. above.
4. Concerned that my Norton 4K lapped, feels grittier than my Naniwa 1K

-- and wondering if maybe I need to do something to the Norton 4K side. The 8K side is so smooth.

Any advice is, as always, greatly appreciated.

Adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Yes, use 2 layers if you think there is a lot of hone wear. You may end up with a double bevel, but it will not hurt anything and make a thicker bevel.

After a few honing’s the double bevel will wear away and you will have a single narrower bevel.

At the slightest feel of dragging on the stone change the top layer of tape, you have burned through it.

---

Look at the edge, straight down, make sure you do not have any shiny reflections. Look at the bevel and the edge, for chips and deep stria. If you have deep stria, you will have to drop down in stone to remove the stria, if chipped, joint the edge lightly 1-2 strokes and re set the bevel on the 12k.

Strop the razor on linen after jointing and before honing on the 12k to remove some of the ragged edge then finish on the 12k.

OK - thanks for the help! I appreciate it. I have looked at the edge straight down and I don't see and shiny reflections that would indicate that the bevel is not set all across the edge. At least my beginners eye doesn't see any. I've also carefully laid the led lighted loop (really a handheld mini-scope) on the edge and looked at it straight down under magnification (after the 1K rounds) to see if I can see anything there - and I don't.

I have checked for the chips and stria at each stage and I haven't progressed until the previous stone stria are gone.

After I have so carefully worked the edge up to the 12K -- jointing the edge lightly on the 12K seems drastic. I assume by jointing you mean run the edge lightly over the corner of the 12K stone? I have read about people doing this to remove the wire edge (actually read a paper by a materials scientist a while ago on the wire edge problem looking at edges with an SEM). So after I joint the edge on the corner of the stone - 20 rounds or so on the linen and then work it about 20 laps on the 12K? I'll give it a try tonight.

BTW, shaved with it again this morning and it didn't perform as well as I had hoped - so back to the stones. I'll do as you suggest Euclid440 and report back.

Thanks again

Adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Look at the edge, straight down, make sure you do not have any shiny reflections. Look at the bevel and the edge, for chips and deep stria. If you have deep stria, you will have to drop down in stone to remove the stria, if chipped, joint the edge lightly 1-2 strokes and re set the bevel on the 12k.

Strop the razor on linen after jointing and before honing on the 12k to remove some of the ragged edge then finish on the 12k.

---

My only advice would be to try setting the bevel on the 4 k . Then see if you get any chipping. I use the 3 k to 4 k and only use the 1 k if I realy need to .

just lightly dull the edge and reset bevel with 4 k it should,nt take much at all.

I haven't sat down again yet with the Dovo - but here's some pictures I was able to get with a microscope. These are at about 400x or maybe 500x (the drop in ocular camera is probably 10x or 15x) and the objective lens I'm using is a 40x. There are labels on the bottom left corner but the magnification number isn't right - I just forgot to change it. The second is the Ralf Aust which I've done nothing but touch up on a 12K, CO paste a few times since I got it. The first is the Dovo, on which I've reset the bevel like three times.

Attachment 227593Attachment 227594

Such a difference in the edge - and I can certainly feel it on my face.

Back to the stones. This time I will photograph the edge on the Dovo throughout the process and post them.

Adam

Sorry - I had a typo and subsequent math error in this post! The objective lens isn't 40x it's 4x and the ocular at about 15 so these images are at 60x which is about what they look like - sorry about that. The magnification on the image in the bottom left corner of the image is now correct and I registered the software - which removes that annoying little tag. I do have a 60x objective lens which will get me 900 but it's useless with a razor. I use it for fish keeping trying to identify nasty protozoa - another expensive hobby. Here's a better shot with the correct information as well as the resolution - which is a good way of knowing what you're actually looking at.

Attachment 228438

Adam

Make sure to wipe the bevel with a clean paper towel or tissue. If this is a 12k bevel, there is a lot of deep stria on the bevel and a very jagged edge, most probably the bevel is not fully set.

Sharper photos with more magnification would help.

Look straight down on the bevel, if you see shiny reflections, the bevel is not fully set. Inking the bevel will tell you if you are honing to the edge, with all the changes you have made using tape and not, it would not be surprising if you are not reaching the edge now. Pick one method and stick with it.

Here is a good thread with great photos of what to look for. Second chance at Honing.

Will do - just have to find some time to sit down. Too much going on right now and plenty of other razors in the collection not to have a sense of urgency about getting this one done. My sons gave this one to me as a gift - so I do want to get it shaving well again. I am using a compound light microscope that I also use for biological work. Not the best choice for viewing solids as it is difficult to get light past the mass and into the objective to properly illuminate the subject. I can certainly get to a much higher magnification level - probably around 1200x but I'm pretty sure that's not going to be very helpful because it would be such a small area of viewing. I'll try different objectives and see what looks best. Sharpness is a matter of depth of field - if I focus on the edge - the bevel will be out of focus. Above - I tried to settle on a happy medium. Which would be most important?

I'll try and make this microscope work for me. It's perfect for the biological work I do and I'm certainly not going to spend any money on a usb microscope given that I have a lot more money tied up in this lab quality scope.

I have looked down the edge and I see no flat/shinny spots.


Adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Make sure to wipe the bevel with a clean paper towel or tissue. If this is a 12k bevel, there is a lot of deep stria on the bevel and a very jagged edge, most probably the bevel is not fully set.

Sharper photos with more magnification would help.

Look straight down on the bevel, if you see shiny reflections, the bevel is not fully set. Inking the bevel will tell you if you are honing to the edge, with all the changes you have made using tape and not, it would not be surprising if you are not reaching the edge now. Pick one method and stick with it.

Here is a good thread with great photos of what to look for. Second chance at Honing.

---

60 to 100 should be about all you need for this venture. I picked up a pocket microscope at 200x and frankly, it's a bit much. I find myself using the tried and true 60x more often than not.

The picture in post 21 makes it look like a prime candidate for some 4k action. Doesn't look like it needs to drop back to 1k. I don't know if you read the propaganda that came with your Norton 4K, but it was designed as a "cutting" hone - it removes a lot of material for what it is. The more I play with mine, the more I'm surprised at what it can do.

You said yours feels rougher than your 1K? I didn't see anyone a dress that. They come with a fairly rough surface and this needs to be worn off with the lapping stone/plate and smoothed out. A little bit of wet sanding after lapping ensures a smooth surface. I stopped at 1k. It kind of feels like ceramic when it's ready for work. Not glassy like the 8k of course, there's a bit more friction. But much smoother than a 1k hone.

Yup agree, some 4k time to remove the deep 1k stria.

Really think too much is put into what a 4k should feel like or bevel should look like, it’s 4k. The goal of a 4k is to remove deep, 1k stria. The edge will not begin to get straight until 8k, so don’t sweat it.

Yes, they are aggressive and once the bevel are flat and in the correct plane, a 4k is a much better bevel setter and may make a stronger edge.

Though, jointing after the 1k, will get an edge straighter, faster.

Thanks Marshal - I started on the 4K this time. It has been lapped many - many times over the last year. I've read here where others feel like it's not smooth - but when I look at 1K stria and 4K stria in the scope, it's pretty easy to see the difference - just doesn't feel very smooth.

I'll post my progress today.

Adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marshal

60 to 100 should be about all you need for this venture. I picked up a pocket microscope at 200x and frankly, it's a bit much. I find myself using the tried and true 60x more often than not.

The picture in post 21 makes it look like a prime candidate for some 4k action. Doesn't look like it needs to drop back to 1k. I don't know if you read the propaganda that came with your Norton 4K, but it was designed as a "cutting" hone - it removes a lot of material for what it is. The more I play with mine, the more I'm surprised at what it can do.

You said yours feels rougher than your 1K? I didn't see anyone a dress that. They come with a fairly rough surface and this needs to be worn off with the lapping stone/plate and smoothed out. A little bit of wet sanding after lapping ensures a smooth surface. I stopped at 1k. It kind of feels like ceramic when it's ready for work. Not glassy like the 8k of course, there's a bit more friction. But much smoother than a 1k hone.

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Spent some more time on the stones with this Dovo. In between this Dovo work, I refreshed another razor that shaves great, reset the bevel on a friend of mines razor that he hasn't used in years - and worked up to shave ready, and repaired my sons sheffield wedge - that he dropped (spent a lot of time n the 4K on that one). I didn't have any trouble with any of those razors. Not sure why this particular Dovo has given me problems. After the sequences below - I shaved with the Dovo this morning and it was not only comfortable but provided a great shave. I think I could spend some more time on the 8K before moving to the 12K - still a little stria to remove.

These pictures are taken with a Celestron drop in ocular camera connected through USB to my computer. I'm using a Celestron compound light microscope. I'm using a very bright LED light reflecting off of the base mirror to get as much light into the optics as I can. The lighting assembly just isn't bright enough. The camera is probably about 20x - which is what I read from some scientists using it although I can't be positive as I have no way to measure it. The objective lens I'm using is 10x so that should give us around 200x magnification. This is pretty high magnification which basically shows only a portion of the bevel. When I look at the blade with my LED lighted handheld at 60x - it looks awesome! So be aware that this 200x magnification is pretty extreme - but I really wanted to see what was going here since I've had so much trouble with this one.

I followed Euclid440's advice and stayed with the no tape method and the assumption that the bevel hasn't been fully set. I see no shinny spots but my eye is not well trained and I'm over 50 - so magnification is my friend. Naniwa 1K (not used in this session), Norton 4/8K combo, Naniwa 12K, CO pasted strop and SRD Bridle leather and linen strop.

So here we go - the before work picture:
Attachment 229341

After circle method on the 4K and about 40 up and back angled passes so I can see the stria.
Attachment 229342

Round 2 on the 4K straight up and back
Attachment 229343

After the 8K up and back
Attachment 229344

After the 8K up and back Round 2
Attachment 229345

After the 8K up and back Round 3
Attachment 229346

Finally - After the 12K Round 1. I ran the edge gently over the corner of the stone here as suggested. Went to linen, then back to the 12K. Wouldn't shave arm air. So I went back to the 8K and did 20 laps ultra-light laps and then to the 12K for 20 ultra-light laps and then took this picture.
Attachment 229347

So there - you go. I finally have it back shaving almost as well as when I got it from SRD!

Adam

Adam, looks like about 200x, your bevel is still not fully set, it may cut arm hair but the edge will fail and chip out more, it will not shave comfortably.

Back to the 4k and stay on it until all the deep 1k stria is gone and the bevels are meeting fully. Notice how the deep 1k stria, end in a chip at the edge.

When you bread-knife an edge, it does not hurt to set the bevel, joint the edge and set it again to ensure you have a solid bevel of good steel. Jointing at the 4k also will ensure you have fully set the bevel.

Your 12k is polishing just fine, you just need a good edge.

OK - makes sense. It shaves reasonably well - but I think I will have the same problem with it breaking down over a short amount of time that I had last time if I don't follow your advice. Thanks for taking the time to coach me through this.

I am having a hard time seeing the 1K stria in the 4K pictures above. I do see them on the 8K photo after the 8K has removed all the 4K stria. So I'll have a go tonight on the 4K and then go up to the 8K and see if I have any deeper 1K stria left. I'll keep bouncing back and forth between the 4 and the 8 until the 8K picture comes up clean of 1K stria. I may joint it on the 4K in the process to get rid of the chips once the 1K stria are gone. Then I'll finish on the 8 and move to the 12 to polish.

I think this one is so much trouble and different than others I have worked on successfully because I must have put too much pressure on it while fixing the damage on the 1K originally. I think I'm still working out those deep 1K stria from that pressure. I definitely see what you mean - how the 1K line runs up the bevel and ends in a chip.

Thanks!

Adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Adam, looks like about 200x, your bevel is still not fully set, it may cut arm hair but the edge will fail and chip out more, it will not shave comfortably.

Back to the 4k and stay on it until all the deep 1k stria is gone and the bevels are meeting fully. Notice how the deep 1k stria, end in a chip at the edge.

When you bread-knife an edge, it does not hurt to set the bevel, joint the edge and set it again to ensure you have a solid bevel of good steel. Jointing at the 4k also will ensure you have fully set the bevel.

Your 12k is polishing just fine, you just need a good edge.

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Yes, bread-knifing can damage the steel at the edge if too much pressure is used or aggressive stones. You are literally grinding the edge. Often some more of the edge needs to be removed to prevent crumbling. So set the bevel a couple times on problem edges to avoid crumbling at the higher grits, you don’t have to remove that much often, just a few thousands.

Stay on the 4k until all the deep 1k stria is removed and you are honing all the way to the edge. Jointing and re-setting the bevel will ensure you have a good edge

Try angling your honing so the final 1k stria are at about 45 degree angle, then you will easily see which are 1 and 4k by the stria angle. It is better to do a few, (10 or so) extra laps to ensure you have a fully set bevel. Ink can be a good indicator also and will quickly tell you if you are honing to the edge.

Failing to fully set a bevel are probably 90 percent of new honers problems.

What I,m hearing is you keep going up before your done at the bevel setting stage, Euclid is trying to tell you that,, you will get there , even a guy like me can do it now , though I still don't like this part of shaving,, I just want to shave, but I can get a razor working now that doesn't have too many issues, I had a one on one with Randy, and believe me he didn't let me move up till the edge bevel was totally ready, tc

Yeah - that's what I'm trying to learn!

Adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tcrideshd

What I,m hearing is you keep going up before your done at the bevel setting stage, Euclid is trying to tell you that,, you will get there , even a guy like me can do it now , though I still don't like this part of shaving,, I just want to shave, but I can get a razor working now that doesn't have too many issues, I had a one on one with Randy, and believe me he didn't let me move up till the edge bevel was totally ready, tc

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Spent some more time on this last night.

My goal here is to understand when to move to the next stone - which sounds easier that it apparently is to nail down. My situation is that this razor was damaged in a drop (don't ask my wife who knocked it off the stand...) so I went to a Naniwa 1K stone and worked it pretty hard to remove metal all along the edge until the damage was gone. That's a pretty severe amount of metal for a straight. I believe I was too aggressive with the 1K stone and applied too much pressure in the process - potentially flexing the blade etc etc. I had a lot of deep 1K stria and chipping as I moved up to the next stones without having removed them. Subsequently I got some edge breakdown with use as the edge was only comfortable for a couple of shaves. I picked up a drop in ocular camera for my microscope to see what was happening and posted some pics here so I could get some help. I got great help and I'm following the advice that I have received - this is the fourth round with this razor and I think I'm there. I may do one more round if this edge doesn't hold up.

As you look at these pictures - remember that this is a 200x magnification. When I look through a 60X loop - I can't see any of the lines I can see at 200x. For comparison - the first picture is a microscopic shot of the bevel line. Here you can see the polishing scratches on the shinny surface of the Dovo 5/8 razor - that's the bottom portion of the photo. Above the line you see is the start of the bevel line moving up toward the edge of the blade. See all those huge striations on the bottom of the photo? That's the general polished surface of the razor - of course to the naked eye this is highly reflective and feels like glass. At 200x magnification - you can see deep lines from the buffing process. So keep in mind that we are looking for an edge that is ultra-fine when compared to the surface of the razor. I point this out for folks who don't have any experience with a microscope - you may see what appear to huge lines after the 12K polishing - but in reality they are quite literally microscopic. This sort of underscores what we are actually doing in the honing process. This is the blade of the razor with a mirror finish:

Attachment 229599

This is the comparison photo of the bevel line to give folks some reference.
Attachment 229589

All of the following pictures are just the very edge of the blade. This only shows about half of the distance of the bevel itself.

After some 4K work
Attachment 229590

Went to the 8K to get rid of some 4K stria in order to see if the 4K took out the 1K deep stria - more at 4K
Attachment 229591

Went back and forth with 4K 8K - sort of pyramid method until I didn't see the 1K stria anymore - this is after 8K
Attachment 229592

Went to the 12K multiple rounds - very gently - and then to chromium oxide pasted leather strop.
Attachment 229593

Shaving arm hair like a champ and the shave this morning was very comfortable and very close. Thanks for the help.

Adam

Congrats on the successful hone job!