Learning to Hone & making my razor more dull.

Hey Fella's,
Last year I bought a H.M. Christensen from the classifies here on SRP to replace a cheap Chinese made razor I bought on Amazon when I was originally inspired to start straight razor shaving. The Christensen razor has been great, it can nice and sharp from the previous owner, but over time the edge has dulled of course. I've since been trying to revive it with my Norton 4000/8000 in order to get it back up and shaving nicely, but to my dismay I've been unsuccessful. I've sat down 3 or 4 times now on separate occasions, honing both my razors, practicing with their different weights/feels etc.. After each hone, I'd then try a shave after stropping the razor. After my first 2 attempts, I noticed minor improvement, but the edge seemed to lose the edge very quickly. And after my most recent attempt, using a nagura stone to whip up a slurry and hoping that would help get me to a nice shave, it was even worse, it dragged terribly and my china made razor way outperformed my Christensen.

Here's what I've been doing...

1. So far I've been pretty much using the 8000 edge of my Norton exclusively, because my first impression was that the edge was sharp but just needed some minor improvement. Reflecting now, perhaps this is part of the problem? Overdoing it on the 8000?
2. Each time I honed the razor, I might make 100 or so passes.

Here's what I've observed..

1. The bevel on my china made razor is nice a thick, it was originally all messed up, not passing the sharpie test and having uneven wear etc.. but I think I've actually brought it back up to OK shaving status.
2. The bevel on my Christensen, which was always quite narrow, seems like it is perhaps even more narrow. Maybe this is part of the problem.. a disappearing bevel.

Here's a shot of my H.M. Christensen so you can see what I've got.

Your experience would be greatly appreciated! Thanks a bunch!

Attachment 223478

First you want to put a piece of electrical tape on the spine.
Get your Norton 4/8K wet. Do you have a lapping plate to make sure Norton is a flat??
If No use a piece of 320 grit sandpaper, make a grid on your Norton with a pencil .Place sandpaper on a known flat (kitchen counter).
Flat stone? If yes then rinse hone to remove any sandpaper gunk. if no repeat above step till it is flat and or purchase a diamond lapping plate.
25 x strokes on the 8K side feel edge ,test, You will probably need to repeat this step several times, if no improvement of edge.
You need to drop back to the 4K side and do 25 x strokes and test. Norton is always kept wet. Sharpie test. 25 more x strokes.
See Library for honing tips. Change tape when it starts to wear.
Chinese razor I do not speak on, junk steel.
Contact original seller and discuss his honing charge. this would get you sharp until you have lapping plate and more experience.

If your Chinese Razor is like mine, now is a good time to look into a rolling X stroke. I'm pretty sure that's what tehy used to hone them, so if you're using a regular back and forth pass you'll be there a while trying to get the full length of the edge sharp.

Other than that, prep your stone as mentioned above. Both sides need to be lapped, and if it's a brand new hone, lapped a lot before you get to usable surface. This may help:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Yeah you did about 85-90 strokes too many with the Christensen on the 8k. This is especially the case if your strokes were not perfect, and as a beginner honer the odds are good that they were not. The only way that the bevel would be getting smaller would be if you were lifting the spine off of the hone or, less so, if you had taped the spine.

@Ultrasoundguy2003,
Your answer mystified me, but after watching the video posted by @Marshal below I know understand. Holy crap! Lapping Stone?? I've never even heard of that and I assumed when I bought a new Norton 4k/8k that it would be ready to hone. To be honest I'm frustrated and feeling like I'm being duped to buying more and more gear just to sharpen my razor. Maybe it's time to go back to shaving with dollar store razors in 1/4 the amount of time it takes me to do all this.

The principles are the only thing that are keeping me in this, but I'm kinda just barely holding on..

Thanks for your help.

@Marshal, The video definitely helped. Very obvious that I'm missing a whole aspect I wasn't even aware of. Not sure if my Norton is flat! I'll guess I'll have to order a lapping stone and check with the pencil grid trick when it arrives.

@Utopian, Thanks for the confirmation on my numbers, I thought 'more means sharper' which as I'm learning is not the case, especially if you're doing it poorly and your stone may not even be ready to hone!
Thanks!

You can lap your stone on a flat surface with W/D sand paper.

@All, Just a note, the Norton was always wet when I was honing. I'll try the sandpaper to lap it on my marble kitchen counter and I'll post my results when I get there!
Thanks @bluesman @ultrasoundguy2033 - for the sandpaper alternative.

If you are not married or attached, it can be on a countertop. If you are married or attached, then you should do it on a countertop with a cookie sheet or something else like it to catch the water and swarf.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EhSepich

Holy crap! Lapping Stone?? I've never even heard of that and I assumed when I bought a new Norton 4k/8k that it would be ready to hone. To be honest I'm frustrated and feeling like I'm being duped to buying more and more gear just to sharpen my razor. Maybe it's time to go back to shaving with dollar store razors in 1/4 the amount of time it takes me to do all this.

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I'm sorry you feel frustrated. Please consider this in another context...

In the "old days," the average guy had a (that's one) razor and a strop. That's it. He probably sharpened his razor on the back of the strop with wood ash or some other mild abrasive. If his razor needed more work than that, he would bring it to a barber who probably only had one or two hones, such as a coticule, or thuringian, or a synthetic barber hone. The barber could sharpen any razor with just that. You can too, but it takes more time and more skill.

Fast forward to today. A little more than a decade ago some guys realized that the Norton 4k/8k hone, a tool hone, worked well for razors. For the precision work for razors, this hone happens to need regular lapping or refreshing. As more time progressed more and more hones that had been used for razors by some people became known to more people on forums such as this. This simple process of shaving became potentially much more complicated for those of us who chose to make it so. Put it this way, a typical farmer in 1900 had no knowledge of the nuances of the various strata of hones from the mine under Nakayama mountain in Japan.

You can keep this as simple or complicated as you wish. You can stick with just a razor and a strop. If you wish, you can add just a single hone. A hone such a coticule or a barber hone can be used for your entire life without ever needing to be lapped. Anything beyond these basic items are entirely optional.

But they can be fun!

As Lynn says in that video, it doesn't have to be perfectly flat (though flatter is better). In fact it's probably flat enough, but for some reason the surface texture is rough. Perhaps it's because they know everyone has their own way of prepping a stone, and someone that sharpens chisels will invariably have different surface prep needs than those of us using them for straight razors. So, they sell them a bit rough, and let you prep it to your liking. For all I know the surface right from the factory could be ideal for a chisel. All mine are cold chisels, and they're 'sharpened' with a 6" 220 grit bench grinder when the edge is sufficiently dulled to the point it's more punch than chisel.

And none of this information is in the hone packaging not that guys read directions anyway. I literally found out the exact same way you did. A year ago I had an unlapped Norton 4k/8k and a Guangxi hone that was also unlapped/prepped and couldn't for the life of me figure out why my straight razor was duller than the pocket knife I was sharpening on my grandfather's well worn Arkies. Probably because the surface of the Norton 4k was as rough as 600 grit sand paper and the Guangxi hone still had wet-saw kerf marks on the surface. So I asked a question here, and someone showed me that exact video, and it all made sense. Note that it still took time after learning to dress the stones to obtain the skill to use them properly. Still working on that last part, but getting better every day.

I've been where you're at. Straight razors are the pinnacle of finely honed edges. Pushing through the frustration, and dealing with failure after failure is worth it because I enjoy the zen art of honing and making things sharp. I also have fun playing with different types of hones and learning what makes them tick, so to speak. If you dislike all the fuss, perhaps the oft overlooked barber hone is the way to go for you.

The easiest, and dare I say it fastest, way by far is via barber hone. I have a 2 sided b. hone made by American Hone Co., and off the Norton 4k it took maybe 20 no pressure strokes total, 10 on each side, to get a razor to shaving sharp. I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it with my own 2 eyes. You just have to be careful not to overdo it. 5 strokes, check, repeat only if necessary. With a B. hone less is more. Just learned that lesson the hard way the other day lol. As Utopian said, no large number of steps, no lapping or surface prep. Just wet it with water, oil, or shave lather, make a couple light passes, strop and shave.