Has anyone tried any of the Shapton glass hones?
http://www.shaptonstones.com/stones/glass.php
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Has anyone tried any of the Shapton glass hones?
http://www.shaptonstones.com/stones/glass.php
I have the 2k and 4k glassstones, and the 8k and 15k "professional" hones. The glassstones are the same abrasive material as the professional series hones but without the color coding. You don't get as much abrasive but you don't pay as much either, and you won't wear out a glassstone in your lifetime unless you're abusing it with a chisel or something. Had I known about the glassstones when I ordered my pro-series hones I would have gone with the glassstone version. Some people believe the shaptons (both glass and pro) are ill suited for use on straight razors, though there is some disagreement on this point.
thanks mparker762, a lot of people say the grit size on Norton stones are off as well and that Shapton's are more accurate. to each there own. I was thinking about purchasing the 16000 glass Shapton instead of a couticle.
I am thinking about the 30K :eek:
Cheers
Ivo
I had a coticule, but recently sold it as it was essentially a duplicate of my 8k Shapton.Quote:
Originally Posted by ucliker
I'm not sure Shapton's grit ratings are more accurate; AFAIK they just use a different system for rating their stones. The advantages of the Shaptons are that you don't need to soak them or dry them; just spritz on water and hone then rinse them off and put them away when you're done. They don't need a slurry like the coticule, and they don't need lapping as frequently as the Norton. They also come in a wider range of grit sizes so you can stay with one system from start to finish.
They are also pricey compared to the Norton, though they can seem downright reasonable compared with some of the natural stones. And there are very few members that use the Shapton stones; you'll have a much wider network of experienced people available if you stick with the norton and coticule.
I'm not looking for a norton replacement, I was just thinking about the shapton
16000 for a final finishing stone. $100 is better than almost $200 for a couticle.
The coticule is a great stone but its not a 16K stone by any stretch of the imagination. If you want to get into higher grit sharpening why not try a pasted strop for the final polishing?
i guess i could do pastes but won't a stone be better in the long run.
But not nearly as expensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by ucliker
And you don't NEED to pay 200$ for a coticule.
A 6x2 select grade coticule costs only 75$ ata www.theperfectedge.com
Mine is 6x1.5 and it works just fine.
I sure would like to have an 8x3 :) , but it's not like you can't get the same results with a smaller and cheaper stone.
Thanks Bruno, i forgot about the smaller sizes:tu
How do Shaptons compare to coticules and Nortons speed wise? Are they slow or fast cutters? I am still looking for a coarser grit than the coticule for my razors but do not look forward to the hassle of Nortons that have to spend their days in a fish tank, need lapping (lapping stones cost a bit as well).
I lapped my norton on sandpaper on my countertop, which saved the space and (at least short-term) the expense of the lapping stone. I've got the shapton lapping plate (the iron one, not the diamond one), but after the initial lapping I mostly use it as a base nowadays; I generally lap my Shaptons against each other.
The Shaptons do need lapping, but not nearly as much as the Norton. Speed-wise the Shaptons seems somewhat faster, though they're hard to compare since there isn't a 1:1 correspondence with the Norton hones - a Shapton 8k (1.8 micron) is substantially finer than a Norton 8k (3 micron), and in my experience is comparable to a coticule. The Shapton's aggressiveness is one of the biggest issues with honing a razor on them - they're so fast that it is easy to overhone the edge. You have to use a very light touch and use them dewey-wet to avoid too much suction effect (dewey = more than damp, but less than puddles). I rehoned a Puma last night on my 8k and 15k and it took 4 laps on the 8k and 5 laps on the 15k: 3x8k, 2x15k, 1x8k, 3x15k). The last three laps on the 15k I stropped and hair-tested after the second stroke; it was close but not quite there so I gave it one more stroke which did it. Shaved with it this morning and it was great. I may give it a few laps on the newspaper paddle for some extra smoothness but that's it; if I do my part on the 15k then the chrome oxide doesn't bring a whole lot to the party.
So the glass stones need to be lapped? I thought the honing surface was just the surface texture on the glass. But if they are to be lapped that would destroy it. So out goes my theory.
If these hones actually maintain their abrasiveness through a certain depth that makes these very attractive options for finishing hones:).
@ mparker:
I was looking for coarser grits e.g. 1K and 4K. Is there a risk of overhoning in that grit range?
And why, if they are so much faster, do many of us still use the Norton? Is it force of habit or our conservative character? On one of the knife forums someone commented once that straight razor users are considered to be very conservative and traditionalist
Arre they really? A single grit Norton at Classic Shaving is more expensive than a single grit Shapton. Of course double sided Nortons are cheaper than 2 Shaptons but if Shaptons are so much faster: wouldn't a single grit Shapton do?Quote:
Originally Posted by mparker762
I have the 8k shapton, (and an Arkansas surgical stone which I don't use)and that is all. I get a nice keen edge on my razor, but it has not passed the hanging hair test, probably because I have only been honing for about 2 months, and still learning the tricks of the trade. I still get a very comfortable, bbs shave with no irritation, so I don't kill myself, or my checkbook, in worrying about getting that perfect edge with additional pastes, stones, etc... . Maybe when I come into some more money, and doesn't need to be spent elsewere I will increase my inventory of stones. in my humble opinion, the 8k shapton is a very good stone, and cuts fast.
No, their website is pretty confusing on that point, which is why I didn't buy the glassstones when I first went looking (I thought you had to use the $$$ diamond lapping plate on them). The glassstones are simply 5mm of abrasive on a tempered glass substrate. They still need lapping, just not very often because they're so hard and so fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by silver2k
No, you still need the separate grits, otherwise you'll wear out your expensive hone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees
One of the things that makes the Shapton system work is their speed and the efficient steps in the grits. Once you get the bevel set you should never need more than 5 or 6 laps on any given stone before moving up to the next one, and 2-3 may be more typical (I'm pretty sure I should have stopped after 2 laps on the 8k, but I did one more "for good measure" and then wound up having to correct this with that short pyramid).
For any newbies reading this thread: because of their speed and cost I really can't recommend them to someone just starting out - it's waaaaay to easy to overshoot the edge with these things. Speaking from experience you really don't want to have to go over the hone with a microscope and tweezers picking out bits of wire edge that have broken off and embedded in the hone. Not more than once, anyway.
Do you do the HHT before or after stropping? You'll get better (more indicative) results if you strop before trying the HHT.Quote:
Originally Posted by mhailey
The 8k Shapton is probably the most useful stone in their lineup - AFAICT it produces an edge roughly comparable to the coticule but in a fraction of the time. Following this with a few laps on chrome oxide will give you a really good, smooth-shaving edge.
Sure. But overhoning has no real effect on the final shaving edge until you get to the polishing grits - the sandpaper that is so popular at those low grits produces an impressive wire edge, but it snaps off once you get to the 4k and then you finish the bevel and it doesn't matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees
AFAIK, the norton was "discovered" by the straight razor community long before the shaptons were discovered. There was very little discussion of them on SRP before Joe Lerch and I bought ours (Joe got a 16k glassstone, I got a 15k pro stone). Before the glassstones came around a Shapton was twice the price of the Norton combo *per stone*. The norton is also available at classic and the other straight razor stores, and is much easier to learn on. I wouldn't really recommend a shapton to someone just starting out because of these factors, a norton, barber hone, or coticule will be much easier to learn on because the edge spends more laps near the peak, and the lower cost means a much less of a monetary barrier to entry. Plus the norton allows a one-stop-shopping experience at the various on-line merchants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees
Do they wear quickly? I would risk it, suppose they wear in half a life time when you stick with one grit you can always buy a 2nd one, if you're fortunate you may never need to buy another one.Quote:
Originally Posted by mparker762
Sorry, but you will have to define HHT. I am starting to get the lingo/acronyms, but I don't know that one. Also,I don't have any pasted strops, just a linen and leather strop. Since I only have one razor, I simply give it 3 (maybe 4) laps on the shapton once I feel the blade beginning to pull when I shave, then strop on the leather, and that's it. I strop on the linen and leather after the first two shaves after honing. I don't know if this is "correct", but it has worked for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by mparker762
Would you recommend a pasted strop? if so, what grit and how do you use it?
They will wear quickly if you're trying to use too high a grit - it takes roughly 8x the # of laps at 8k as it would at 4k, so even a fast stone is too slow if it's too fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kees
HHT is the acronym for hanging hair test. I don't actually use a hanging strand of hair from my head, instead I test the blade on my arm hair. I touch the blade to the middle of a hair about halfway up; the hair should cut in two on contact. Sharper blades will do the same thing closer to the end of the hair.Quote:
Originally Posted by mhailey
Pasted strops are a very cheap way to put a fine polish on an edge. I really like the 0.5 micron chrome oxide paste. Once you leave the 8k Shapton then about 10 laps on chrome oxide should do the trick (maybe more, maybe less, you'll have to experiment with your paddle/razor/hone combo).
Thanks for the clarification. I do the HHT (boy i sound official) after honing and stoping on the leather. I can cut the hair on my arm about 1/4 of the way up. I have alway understood the HHT to be touching the hair (from your head) to the blade while holding the blade stationary, and it just pops in two. when I do this, the hair just bends, and nothing is cut.
How do you paste a strop? Just rub it on? Do you have to "repaste" the strop each time? if no, how often do you have to repaste it?
Sorry if I am hijacking this thread.
There are a lot of threads on this topic :) But yes, you just rub it in, and you repaste whenever it stops working. If you're just using one razor this could be once a year or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by mhailey