Just 1 hone for everything?

All I really want is to have a moderate but decent rotation of razors, and the mains to maintain my rotation effectively. I have done a few honings for people now, but I don't really have the time or enthusiasm to do this on a regular basis, or for a living.

I currently own the following hones:

1. Norton 4K/8K.
2. Norton flattening stone.
3. 6"x1.5" belgian yellow coticle.

If I'm not doing major restorations, or lots of honing for people. Do I really need a Norton 4K/8K or will the belgian yellow suffice?

Is a belgian yellow all I need to maintain my already decent razors indefinately, or do I really need the 4K/8K too?

If a belgian yellow is all I need, I'm considering selling my 4K/8K, flattening stone, and my small belgian yellow, and upgrading to just one stone - an 8"x3" belgian yellow. Good idea, or bad idea?

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts! :)

That's assuming you'll never buy a new blade again :cool:

For maintenance only a coticule is all you need unless... you buy used razors that need more work or you chip one of your razors...

You might be on the right track here if you only plan to start with new razors. I do believe EL only uses finishing stones (Coticules, Eschers, Hunsruecks) on the new razors he hones for me and not a Norton.

If so maybe a 3x8 is all that is needed.

Tony

I only use fniishing stones. As long at the edge isn't all buste up a Belgian is just fine. That's all I ever use.

I've recently started using Belgians exclusively--blue and yellow. I think they're all you need to keep an edge shaving wonderfully.

You could get a combo blue/yellow and be pretty much set. If you needed to work out chips, you could use sandpaper, or an inexpensive diamond hone like the smaller DMTs.

Howard uses a DMT 1200-grit, then a Belgian blue and yellow. I'm finding this is a really effective and quick way to get eBay razors up and running--lots better than my old sandpaper/Norton setup.

If you were patient, I'm sure you could get eBay razors shaving with only a yellow, though. With a slurry the coticule cuts quite quickly.

If I only had to have one hone, it would be a 6x2" coticule. :)

Josh

Even for medium heavy work the coticule is good enough.
But you don't really need an 8*3. For some razors a narrow hone might even be better suited.

Believe me if I could afford an 8*3 I'd buy one too, but a 6*1.5 does the job as well.
I have one, and I am happy with it. It is a blue-yellow combo stone though, and I use the blue as well from time to time.

But I also have a norton 1/4, a 4/8 and a flattening stone.
All of which I like a lot as well. Especially if I am honing razors in less than good condition.
I also have a couple of stones I use for things other than razors.
I like all my stones really.

I guess my point is that even if I would not hone razors for other people anymore, and even if I only had/bought high end razors, I would not sell my stones, just in case I ever need them again. Maybe I'd start using them on kitchen knives or axes.

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Originally Posted by JoshEarl

You could get a combo blue/yellow and be pretty much set.

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I have one, simply because the shop I bought it in sold them for the same price as the slate backed ones. I think that it was an accident they had it in the first place.

Anyhow, natural combos are beautiful but there are 2 things worth pointing out:
1) natural combos are more expensive than one separate yellow and blue stone together.
2) you can use separate stones alongside each other, whereas you have to turn over a combo stone if you want to switch. Potential issues here are slurry contamination and the fact that you can have crud / lint /... hangin to the side that the combo was lying on earlier.

Thanks for the info guys. I think I'll probably go the route of just using a yellow coticle, I only have a small flat and am always getting grief for leaving stones all over the place in our small kitchen!

I've done a little experimentation using them with/without slurry and it's cool that you can change the speed the stone cuts at a little. I also like the way that it's much harder to overhone with a yellow compared to a 4K/8K, especially since I tend to use more strokes than is probably necessary.

I'll give this some thought, thanks folks. :)

If I had one hone that would take care of virtually all of my needs it would be the Norton 4K/8K Combo. I honed with that and nothing else for several years before ever using pastes or eschers or coticules and a bunches of other stuff. It remains the most consistent hone in my arsenal and can be used on everything from ebay specials to touch ups.

Have fun.

Lynn

Hmmm, so you consider your 4K/8K pretty indispensible Lynn.

I think maybe since I already own one, it makes sense to keep it in the available arsenal rather than sell it off.

I have to say I prefer using the yellow coticle though, for some reason it just feels 'nicer' and 'smoother' when I'm using it.

Cheers. :)

I say naturals. This is going to produce an edge that you will scrape skin cells off your face with, so would you rather know that its made using something natural???

Having said that weight of evidence on the forums is that the nortons are the best, but I would not know - I am sticking with god-made hones.

Si

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Originally Posted by Sunsi

I say naturals. This is going to produce an edge that you will scrape skin cells off your face with, so would you rather know that its made using something natural???

Si

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I really am not trying to be rude but I don't see any logic in this statement. If anything, it can be argued that the specifications of man-made stones like the Norton are much more precise than stones made by nature; furthermore, they can produce a more consistent edge from stone to stone. I use both natural stones and man-made stones and both can produce an edge worthy of "wiping the hair off my face". If you want to stay with natural stones then that is fine; however, I think that you are deceiving yourself if you think that a stone will automatically produce a better edge because it was made by nature as opposed to man.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steelforge

Hmmm, so you consider your 4K/8K pretty indispensible Lynn.

I think maybe since I already own one, it makes sense to keep it in the available arsenal rather than sell it off.

I have to say I prefer using the yellow coticle though, for some reason it just feels 'nicer' and 'smoother' when I'm using it.

Cheers. :)

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I would be happy with just my Norton 4K/8K and a small coticule. If I had to choose just one it would be the Norton, but luckily I am not in a position to have to make such a choice.

I'm going to simplify a little here:

There are basically 2 types of straight razor hones. Fast cutting hones which are generally the synthetic man made types (Nortons, carborundums, Swatys), and slow cutting hones which are generally the natural stones (Belgians, Eschers). The fast hones are typically coarser and the slow hones finer.

Slow hones are best for beginners since they are more forgiving and it is harder to over-hone and ruin the edge, although it will take longer to hone the razor. The fast hone requires more expertise since the edge is greatly affected in a shorter period of time and if your technique is lacking, you may end up doing more harm than good.

I don't think you have to have both types to hone a razor, but there are times when one or the other may come in handy. Or it could just be personal preference.

Recently I have used just the "Little Devil" barber hone with great success. It would be considered a fast hone and I've found it can put an edge on a dull razor in under 20 strokes and can touch up a razor with just 2-4 strokes. I've found it works best with water or lather, but can be used dry. In either case, followed by a good stropping it will create a HHT hair spliting, smooth shaving edge. Lately I've experienced this on both a Puma and a Thiers "Eagle Brand" straight razor.

So far the "Little Devil" is one of my favorites, and is one I'd definately choose if I could have only one hone.

Scott

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Originally Posted by JoshEarl

Howard uses a DMT 1200-grit, then a Belgian blue and yellow. I'm finding this is a really effective and quick way to get eBay razors up and running--lots better than my old sandpaper/Norton setup.

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Hey Josh, what are you finding to be the advantages of using a DMT instead of sandpaper/1K Norton?

And do you use the DMT 1200 for lapping as well? (I thought Howard used the 300 or 600 DMT for lapping...)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by heavydutysg135

I really am not trying to be rude but I don't see any logic in this statement. If anything, it can be argued that the specifications of man-made stones like the Norton are much more precise than stones made by nature; furthermore, they can produce a more consistent edge from stone to stone. I use both natural stones and man-made stones and both can produce an edge worthy of "wiping the hair off my face". If you want to stay with natural stones then that is fine; however, I think that you are deceiving yourself if you think that a stone will automatically produce a better edge because it was made by nature as opposed to man.

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I think you got the wrong end of the stick - I am not saying that the edge produced is any better or worse, just that the more natural way of achieving it gives a better feeling inside - its a mind thing. I realise I am possibly in the minority here with that train of thought, but I prefer to use natural goods and processes wherever I can in my life, and this is one example of that.

If you dont mean to be rude though, why immediately back it up with a rude statement? If you misunderstood the statement then fair enough, but questioning the logic without seeking further clarification could be considered a little rude. No offence has been taken, but it certainly could have been.

Si

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Originally Posted by dylandog

Hey Josh, what are you finding to be the advantages of using a DMT instead of sandpaper/1K Norton?

And do you use the DMT 1200 for lapping as well? (I thought Howard used the 300 or 600 DMT for lapping...)

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I haven't tried my DMTs for lapping yet, but I plan to next time I have a stone that needs to be lapped. :)

The DMT works better than sandpaper, in my experience, because it doesn't leave a rounded bevel. Sandpaper has give to it, so it tends to curve slightly as the razor's bevel moves across it. I was using the sandpaper to take out chips, then spending a long time on the Norton 1K (which is nice but cuts slowly) to flatten the bevel back out. When the bevel is rounded, the edge doesn't hit the stone during the stroke, only the upper part of the bevel.

The DMT cuts as quickly as sandpaper, doesn't wear out, and leaves a nice, flat bevel.

Other guys have had great luck with sandpaper, though, and I could never figure out what my problem was. :) Also, Randy Tuttle says the DMT is too harsh on the edge and could cause microchipping at the finer grits. I haven't seen it yet, but Randy knows his stuff, so I'm keeping a close eye on things. :)

Josh

Many men in the past used just one hone (most likely - not as nice as a Coticule or an Escher) and it worked for them.

It's a different story if you ask how well it worked - was the edge feeling smooth, etc. I am sure it wasn't

Assuming you are only doing maintenance - you can get by with just a cheap barber hone, a Coticule, or a Green / Yellow Escher - whatever you want to spend. Even on some NOS razors (vs ebay specials) these might require extra dedication and effort to get you to a shave-ready state. If you have the patience - good for you.

Also - NOS can have warps; a 3x8 would not work well on these and may lead to lots of frustration. Heck, high-end TIs come with warps brand new right now, and I also heard Joel complain of a Dovo, iirc - the ivory scales $400 model. I'd rather have a 1.5" or a 1" if I can - it will still work for non-warped blades.

Cheers
Ivo

ps: after all this - I *almost* sold my 3x8 Norton combo and this would have been VERY STUPID (as I now know - thanks Ilija!) I might still sell it one day but only when I am positive I won't be buying anything else... and then, if I chip a razor I'll be sorry for sure

I'd second the recommendation for a narrower hone, especially if it was my only hone. All a wide hone does for you in my opinion is save you a few strokes here and there, plus give you the ability to hone straight across if the razor has a very straight edge.

Narrow is more versatile. :)

Josh

How do you feed your HAD with only one hone? I'm finding that I'm experiencing symptoms of all maner of AD's since starting this...

J.

Last weekend I was honing a 5/8 smiling W&B that was really warped.
I also tried using my 1.5" wide coticule. It has rounded edges and is lapped perfectly flat.

But if a razor is really warped, the fact that the hone is narrow doesn't do you any good. If you try to keep the razor flat on the hone, you will still grind the edge of the blade across the edges of the stone, despite the fact that the hone is narrow.

My last attempt will be to hone it on the rounded edge of a norton without any pressure. Just move the blade in an X motion over the rounded edge itself without making any other contact.
If that doesn't work, nothing will without seriously altering the shape of the blade, and a) it's a hollow so no luck in working with the bevel shape to compensate, and b) it's not mine anyway.

Bruno,

I've only come across one razor so far that my 1.5"-wide coticule couldn't handle, and that blade is a mess in about six different ways. :)

Using the edge of the Norton works, but it's tricky. I was usually able to do well up to the 4K level. Finishing was a real bear, though.

The narrow coticule makes it easier for me because it cuts slower. Fine barber hones also work well for this. I like holding the hone in my hand when I'm working a warped blade, so you can make minute adjustments to the angle with ease.

But you are the master when it comes to warps--I remember bigspendur's challenge. :)

Josh

Yep, I also work with narrow hones holding in one hand - there is just no way for me to control the contact well enough on a 1" hone if I have it on a table or something

I haven't had a case where I need to use the edge only - I am thinking this would be one very serious warp :eek:

Cheers
Ivo

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Originally Posted by izlat

I haven't had a case where I need to use the edge only - I am thinking this would be one very serious warp :eek:

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If I lay it on the the stone with the round side and roll until the toe is touching the stone, then the heel is > 3 or 4 mm removed from the stone.
The other side lays flat on the stone, with the middle barely touching.

As a razor it is pretty useless. Even if I can get it to shave decently, maintaining it will be a bitch. But it will be interesting to see if I can pull it off or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruno

If I lay it on the the stone with the round side and roll until the toe is touching the stone, then the heel is > 3 or 4 mm removed from the stone.

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> 3 or 4 mm :eek: :eek: :eek:

guess you could just string it and use as a bow

More power to you Bruno!
Ivo

I've got a wedge somewhere that has to be lifted around 2 or 3mm at the heel to get the toe. It's almost like a hand forged knife in that the blade seems to taper a little at the end as well as curving up a bit. The heel curves up a little as well but doesn't have the taper so it's not so bad.

I quite liked the heft in my hand but I dropped it about 2ft onto a wooden floor one day when I was cleaning it while I had the scales off which took a little chip out of the edge at the toe.
I had to grind this out which has made it a bit worse but it still shaves and the toe can be used for tidying up around facial hair.

The fact that you have to lift the heel to get to the toe is not a problem, as long as you have to do the same for both sides of the razor.
Honing such a razor is not too difficult.

The real problem is when you have to do this for one side, and the other side lays flat on the stone with only the heel and toe touching, and the middle not or barely touching.

First you have to figure out how you can hone the entire length of the blade without scraping any other part of the blade across the edge of the stone.
Second you have to be careful not to make mistakes, because 1 bad pass will undo half an hour of work or more.
And third, you have to make very light passes because the weight of the razor rests only on a small area of the blade. More than very light pressure and you will chip the edge. This also means you have to do more passes than usual, increasing the chances of a bad pass.

Yup Bruno!

In my experience having a 1" hone has been very helpful (but I have never dealt with big warps)

Cheers
Ivo