Shapton Kuromaku Stones Thoughts/ Shapton Pro Stones

I've been honing with the Shapton Kuromaku stones for the last year and this is what I've learned about them and how I have used them lastly how it effects your pocket. I have the 1k 1.5k 2k 5k 8k 15k pro series stones which is the entire set excluding the 30k which is a little above my budget lol.

First I would like to address the Kuromaku stones which is the Japanese version on the Shapton pro stones. The kuromaku stones are half the cost of the Shapton pro stones and it was said that they released the Shapton pros just for the states because some stones were cracking due to the humidity differences from Japan and they used different binders to prevent the cracking. In terms of performance they are exactly the same, even the 12k Kuromaku and 15k Shapton Pro perform the same and if there is a difference it's not enough to justify the $60 difference in the stones IMO. I haven't had any issues with cracking on my stones now that doesn't mean that there isn't any issues with it, maybe if u live in the desert you might have different results. a risk you do have with buying the Kuromaku stones is that it voids Shaptons warranty if the stones do crack. Looking at the price difference for the series of stones is Shapton Pro $555 and the Kuromaku for $310 (price doesn't include 30k stone)

Now comes to the honing bit, what I have noticed with these stones and how I use them. Keep in mind I am not a honmister nor do I claim to know a great deal about honing. This is only what works for me and if maybe someone new comes across this hopefully this will help them with the learning curve with the stones. Also another thing to bear in mind is that I have only used these stones to hone with and maybe this is how all brands of stones work in a progression. lastly I tried my best with the pictures, I took them with a 100x microscope and u have to get it just right. i took a bunch of pictures and used the best ones but still didn't have the best of luck.

To start I lap all my stones prior to using them with my Atoma 600, using the pencil grid under running water to make sure they are flat. Each stone I use a light slurry then I water it down completely until it's just water on the stone. I do this with one hand on the razor and spray bottle in the other.

The 1k stone I have noticed is really abrasive stone, I have used another 1k stone briefly and it felt way less abrasive. (I actually had someone point this out to me) this made me wonder if the girt levels were different from one brand to another. I use this stone to start off with if the edge needs a great deal of work like big chips in the edge, frowning that kind of thing. Another thing I've noticed with this stone is that my edge would never be straight it would always have micro chipping. I used to think this was a problem with how much pressure I used or how long I stayed on the stone. I also used to bread knife the razor to make it straight then go back to the 1k and only use the stone up to when the serrated looking edge started. Now things have changed and I've realized the 1k 1.5k 2k level stones actually all cause this "chipping" looking edge but it would slowly get better as I moved to each stone. I have never used stria to know when I move on (might be a huge flaw in my honing but this works for me) I know when to move on when my entire edge looks about the same with the size of the "chipping"

here are pictures to maybe help explain what I'm saying because I might not be making any sense hahaha

here is the 1k 1.5k 2k there isn't much a difference you can tell in pictures but the edge gets less "chippy" another way to say this is the edge gets straighter with less flaws in it.

Attachment 235019Attachment 235021Attachment 235020



now the 5k is where the magic seems to happen lol I've checked after only a few passes and the edge will improve leaps in bounds. I would say the 5k and 8k is where I spend most of my time. But I use the same process as before and just keep trucking until the edge looks about the same all way across. Also this is where I use less pressure as compared to the other stones.

Attachment 235023 Attachment 235022


the 15k, this is were I spend the least time I would say I will get 25 passes because if I go any further the edge will start the micro chipping. I have no idea why this happens but it doesn't fail that if I get careless and not count the edge is ruined and I have to go back to the 8k until it's gone again. I have had someone try and replicate this issue who was a honemister (IMO) and he had done about 100 laps and didn't have the issue now how or why this happened I haven't got a clue but it didn't happen, it was craziness!

Attachment 235024


Again I have to say this is only IMO I have no idea if this is right or wrong but I just know what has worked for me with these stones and how I use them. I just hopes this helps someone or even shows where I'm making mistakes with my honing and someone can help me out and make me improve, either way it would be great.

thanks guys,
Fonz

I notice the fourth pic up from bottom to look like the edge has rolled, did stropping remove and straighten the edge as the bottom pic shows? It looks shaveable in the last pic except for the white on the edge, could be light angle etc...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FAL

I notice the fourth pic up from bottom to look like the edge has rolled, did stropping remove and straighten the edge as the bottom pic shows? It looks shaveable in the last pic except for the white on the edge, could be light angle etc...

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So the pictures from top to bottom are the 1k 1.5k 2k 5k 8k 15k so the fourth pic up from the bottom should be the 1.5k picture. I actually don't know what a rolled edge looks like under the scope I just knew it happened from bad stropping technique I think.

I also don't look at my edges after stropping I've guess I never really thought I was damaging the edge then. Maybe that's something I need to start doing.

I'm not sure what the whiteness was to the edge on the last picture, I had more pictures of the 15k but since have deleted them to clean it up a bit.

I use the japanese version shapton stones in 5k and 8k. Love them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by prodigy

I use the japanese version shapton stones in 5k and 8k. Love them.

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I think those two stones are the real miracle workers like I said. I always get the most improvement on my edges on those stones

A couple things, those pic are not 100X, maybe 20-40X. If you are using a Veho USB scope, there are two powers, at each end of the focus spectrum. Run the focus all the way opposite from what you now have and you should see the higher power, also get closer to the bevel, touching or almost touching.

Experiment with blade angles, I find that rotating the scales all the way opposite the edge at 90 degrees works best, then hang the scales off the edge of a ¼ in piece of craft foam. The blade is on the foam, the scales off the foam. This puts the bevel parallel to the scope lens.

You are rolling the edge, in the 1.5 and 2k stone pics, Forget about the slurry, (you don’t need it with an aggressive stone) and watch your pressure. What strokes did you use? Looks like too many laps on one side or too much pressure. Stropping between stones or light finishing laps will remove the rolled edge.

Edges do not get straight until about 8k, so don’t worry about straightness till then. Set the bevel at 1k, make sure the bevel is fully set, look straight down at the edge, looking from the side will tell you if you are honing to the edge, but not if they are meeting fully. You can look at the edge with the 60 power. If you see shiny reflections the edges are not meeting.

You also don’t need a 1, 1.5, 2k progression, pick one or just set at 1k and do a few light 2k to clean up the 1k stria and spend less time on the 4 or 5k. It won’t hurt but it is not needed.

The grit on your stones are probably the same at other Shapton stones, it is the binder that is different and where they cut cost, hence the price difference, they are probably softer than the Pro or Glass series.

When you take your photos you need to wipe the bevel better, the horizontal lines on the bevel are, dried swarf, wipe with a clean, dry paper towel to remove all the swarf prior to photographing.

Your 15k photo looks like the bevel is not set, looking straight down will confirm. It also looks like you are not honing to the edge in some of the Pics. Use some sharpie ink to ensure you are honing to the edge.

The 15k photo looks like there is still some 1k stria on the bevel, this will make a chippy edge at 15k. Spend more time with each stone and remove all the previous stria.

If you micro-chip the edge you do not have to go back to the 8k, just joint the edge on the 15k and re-set it, should only take 6-10 laps and watch your pressure.

Everything you are experiencing is normal to a new honer, soft stones make the learning process harder. You just have to learn to read the bevels and use less pressure.

There is a good series of post by PCM in the honing forum with excellent photos of the process from start to finish. Starting with, Second try at Honing.

Compare his edges and bevels to yours.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dafonz6987

the 15k, this is were I spend the least time I would say I will get 25 passes because if I go any further the edge will start the micro chipping. I have no idea why this happens but it doesn't fail that if I get careless and not count the edge is ruined and I have to go back to the 8k until it's gone again. I have had someone try and replicate this issue who was a honemister (IMO) and he had done about 100 laps and didn't have the issue now how or why this happened I haven't got a clue but it didn't happen, it was craziness!

thanks guys,
Fonz

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To my way of thinking, too much pressure on your part. At 15K you're no longer sharpening, just polishing. Weight of the blade is all that's needed.

Most of my thoughts Echo Euclid's. Guess I must be coming around because I'm finally starting to agree with him :rofl2:

The other thing I wanted to point out is that a chippy edge is common on 1K hones. Yes, the general consensus is that Shaptons are faster/more aggressive than most. A lot of folks use the 1.5 or 2K as a bevel setter and save the 1K for repairs or use a very light touch with it. That must be what Onimaru was talking about when he mentioned cringing at the mention of pressure on a razor - the chipping and stria will be deeper and much more pronounced on a Shapton 1K if you aren't careful, and that will mean more work at later stages in honing trying to get rid of said chipping. You can mitigate that by lightening up on pressure, using almost none by the time you're done with the 1K, jumping up to the 2K and continuing on with minimal pressure. After 1K, the bevel should be set and you're just cleaning up stria and polishing. No need to start with heavy/medium pressure each time you transition to a new hone.

I also notice in your 1K and 8K pictures the bevel looks set, as much as you can tell from a sideways picture at any rate. But in all the rest I see a hint of white at the edge. That indicates there's a flat surface there for light to refract off of, and if your bevel was meeting there wouldn't be anything there to catch and reflect light like that. So whatever it is you're doing between stones is messing up your edge, or you're taking pictures of different areas and it isn't set in some places.

I can't speak for any stones other than the 5k and 8k. Those two are very hard stones. They cut very fast and can take many honing sessions without needing to be re lapped. I usually just refresh them after every 2-3 razors with a few circles on the well worn dmt 325 and they stay flat enough for my standards. I believe it was mainaman that originally peaked my interest in these stones. If I recall correctly they are the exact same as the shapton pro series, just only sold for the japanese market.

The 1.5k and 2k photos show burrs, not rolled edges. This is not a matter of semantics. A rolled edge comes from lifting the spine. A burr comes from excessive pressure and/or back honing.

The 5k still has a slight, but much reduced burr.

The 8k and 12/15k are failing to reach the edge. You said that you spend the bulk of your time on the 5k and 8k. That may be part of the problem. You really don't need to spend much time on the 8k. Also, you said that you are doing maybe 25 strokes on the 12/15. I have not used your particular hone set, but if they are anything at all like the Shapton Pros, you are doing WAY too many strokes on the 8k and 12/15k. Try doing only 10-15 strokes on the 8k and no more than 10 on the 12/15k.

Also, are you using tape? If so, you definitely need fresh tape on each of those last two hones? Worn tape lowers the spine and lifts the edge away from the hone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

A couple things, those pic are not 100X, maybe 20-40X. If you are using a Veho USB scope, there are two powers, at each end of the focus spectrum. Run the focus all the way opposite from what you now have and you should see the higher power, also get closer to the bevel, touching or almost touching.

Experiment with blade angles, I find that rotating the scales all the way opposite the edge at 90 degrees works best, then hang the scales off the edge of a ¼ in piece of craft foam. The blade is on the foam, the scales off the foam. This puts the bevel parallel to the scope lens.

You are rolling the edge, in the 1.5 and 2k stone pics, Forget about the slurry, (you don’t need it with an aggressive stone) and watch your pressure. What strokes did you use? Looks like too many laps on one side or too much pressure. Stropping between stones or light finishing laps will remove the rolled edge.

Edges do not get straight until about 8k, so don’t worry about straightness till then. Set the bevel at 1k, make sure the bevel is fully set, look straight down at the edge, looking from the side will tell you if you are honing to the edge, but not if they are meeting fully. You can look at the edge with the 60 power. If you see shiny reflections the edges are not meeting.

You also don’t need a 1, 1.5, 2k progression, pick one or just set at 1k and do a few light 2k to clean up the 1k stria and spend less time on the 4 or 5k. It won’t hurt but it is not needed.

The grit on your stones are probably the same at other Shapton stones, it is the binder that is different and where they cut cost, hence the price difference, they are probably softer than the Pro or Glass series.

When you take your photos you need to wipe the bevel better, the horizontal lines on the bevel are, dried swarf, wipe with a clean, dry paper towel to remove all the swarf prior to photographing.

Your 15k photo looks like the bevel is not set, looking straight down will confirm. It also looks like you are not honing to the edge in some of the Pics. Use some sharpie ink to ensure you are honing to the edge.

The 15k photo looks like there is still some 1k stria on the bevel, this will make a chippy edge at 15k. Spend more time with each stone and remove all the previous stria.

If you micro-chip the edge you do not have to go back to the 8k, just joint the edge on the 15k and re-set it, should only take 6-10 laps and watch your pressure.

Everything you are experiencing is normal to a new honer, soft stones make the learning process harder. You just have to learn to read the bevels and use less pressure.

There is a good series of post by PCM in the honing forum with excellent photos of the process from start to finish. Starting with, Second try at Honing.

Compare his edges and bevels to yours.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marshal

To my way of thinking, too much pressure on your part. At 15K you're no longer sharpening, just polishing. Weight of the blade is all that's needed.

Most of my thoughts Echo Euclid's. Guess I must be coming around because I'm finally starting to agree with him :rofl2:

The other thing I wanted to point out is that a chippy edge is common on 1K hones. Yes, the general consensus is that Shaptons are faster/more aggressive than most. A lot of folks use the 1.5 or 2K as a bevel setter and save the 1K for repairs or use a very light touch with it. That must be what Onimaru was talking about when he mentioned cringing at the mention of pressure on a razor - the chipping and stria will be deeper and much more pronounced on a Shapton 1K if you aren't careful, and that will mean more work at later stages in honing trying to get rid of said chipping. You can mitigate that by lightening up on pressure, using almost none by the time you're done with the 1K, jumping up to the 2K and continuing on with minimal pressure. After 1K, the bevel should be set and you're just cleaning up stria and polishing. No need to start with heavy/medium pressure each time you transition to a new hone.

I also notice in your 1K and 8K pictures the bevel looks set, as much as you can tell from a sideways picture at any rate. But in all the rest I see a hint of white at the edge. That indicates there's a flat surface there for light to refract off of, and if your bevel was meeting there wouldn't be anything there to catch and reflect light like that. So whatever it is you're doing between stones is messing up your edge, or you're taking pictures of different areas and it isn't set in some places.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by prodigy

I can't speak for any stones other than the 5k and 8k. Those two are very hard stones. They cut very fast and can take many honing sessions without needing to be re lapped. I usually just refresh them after every 2-3 razors with a few circles on the well worn dmt 325 and they stay flat enough for my standards. I believe it was mainaman that originally peaked my interest in these stones. If I recall correctly they are the exact same as the shapton pro series, just only sold for the japanese market.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

The 1.5k and 2k photos show burrs, not rolled edges. This is not a matter of semantics. A rolled edge comes from lifting the spine. A burr comes from excessive pressure and/or back honing.

The 5k still has a slight, but much reduced burr.

The 8k and 12/15k are failing to reach the edge. You said that you spend the bulk of your time on the 5k and 8k. That may be part of the problem. You really don't need to spend much time on the 8k. Also, you said that you are doing maybe 25 strokes on the 12/15. I have not used your particular hone set, but if they are anything at all like the Shapton Pros, you are doing WAY too many strokes on the 8k and 12/15k. Try doing only 10-15 strokes on the 8k and no more than 10 on the 12/15k.

Also, are you using tape? If so, you definitely need fresh tape on each of those last two hones? Worn tape lowers the spine and lifts the edge away from the hone.

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Alright so there is quite a bit to cover here pretty much the common theme here in terms of my honing is that I'm applying too much pressure on my edges causing them to roll/burr. i only use the 1k when there is excessive damage that I have to clean up so I'm usually going 1.5k to 2k. I think I need to find some threads with some pictures of rolled/burr edges so I can take proper measures to fix it early rather than moving up to the 5k 8k and making it smaller. I do use tape and I actually only change the tape after the 2k so changing the tape though the higher grits makes sense on how that can effect my angle in the higher grits.

The scope is use isn't the veho or a usb microscope at all, I bought it on amazon and it's an old fashioned scope. so the light that's used for it is the one actually for the scope. But I'll definitely play around with the angle like was suggested

Try getting closer for photos, touching the blade or as close as possible.

Don’t worry about the edge, just joint it, (one stroke) and re-set. Jointing will give you a straight fresh edge, re-setting will only take a few laps, if your bevels were meeting to begin with.

What cause the edge issue is hard to say from those photos, I suspect it could be the slurry and pressure. Loose the slurry, you don’t need it anyway.

So make sure your bevels are meeting at the bevel set. If you see you are not honing to the edge, change your tape. It is not a bad idea to change your tape with each stone when you are learning. It is easy to burn through tape with an aggressive stone and too much pressure. Too much pressure on a hollow ground blade can lift the edge off the stone.

Alternate your stria, by doing finish strokes at a 45 degree, heel forward on the bevel setter, then straight strokes on the 5k. You will quickly see if you are removing the previous stria. Continue alternating the honing angle with each stone change and stria pattern to check your progress.

Once the bevel is set, the hardest thing is removing the deep 1k or whatever your bevel setter stria is. Usually that is at the 4-5k level where you begin to polish. Then polish at 8k, you may want to joint the edge again and re-set on the 8K, removing the 5k stria. It should go quickly. Keep looking at the edge to make sure you did not muff it.

Change your tape before the finisher and clean your stone, holder and work area of lower grit swarf. Then polish out the 8k stria, for a straight edge and smooth uniform bevel on the 15k.

With your edge, as it is now, put new tape on the spine, ink the bevel and joint the edge on the 5k now polish out all the lower grit stria, until all you have is uniform 5k stria.

Then if the edge is straight, move to the 8k, if it is ragged joint and polish on the 8k. Then change the tape and polish out the 8k stria on the 15K. The whole thing should only take a few minutes, 15-20. You should end up with a super straight edge, and only 15k stria on the bevel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dafonz6987

the 15k, this is were I spend the least time I would say I will get 25 passes because if I go any further the edge will start the micro chipping. I have no idea why this happens but it doesn't fail that if I get careless and not count the edge is ruined and I have to go back to the 8k until it's gone again. I have had someone try and replicate this issue who was a honemister (IMO) and he had done about 100 laps and didn't have the issue now how or why this happened I haven't got a clue but it didn't happen, it was craziness!

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If you're using the ha no kuromaku stones it's called a 12k not 15k. The reason the honemeister didn't have your problem is that his touch is light & you would be using more pressure than he did. Very easy to chip a 12k edge with pressure.
As some of the guys have said you don't have a bevel set & you are mashing the edge with pressure. The HNK stones are simply not an easy stone to learn for razor beginners.

There is a recent thread on Shaptons if you havent already read it:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...gressions.html

btw the "chipping" you mention is most likely a burr. Run the edge on a glass & watch it miraculously disappear.
If it does'nt it is chipping & again that comes back to excessive pressure & /or bad steel.