Coticule finish, sans slurry

After a long and tedious chase to locate and purchase a coticule that I feel can finish a razor as well as any high end jnat, I finally found the one.
I used the stone with great delight, and produced edges that are supremely smooth, compared to the synthetic edges I am so used to. You can imagine my Cheshire lIke grin, as I shaved a full 3 passes with ultimate comfort.
After a while, I decided to look at the tube to see if there are any methods of finishing with a coti that would increase the keenness and still hold onto the smooth buttery feeling that we all love so much.
What I found was a method from a tuber named drmatt357. A finishing technique that uses no slurry, only honing under running water.
I went to the sink, and began the course. After only a couple of minutes I started to get a very sticky, squeegy like feeling on the stone. This, drmatt357 said, is what I'm looking for. Once I achieved this feeling on the hone, I did just a few more passes with little to no pressure at all, and went to the strop to align and clean it all up.
What I saw under the scope was nothing short of amazing. A bevel that is so highly reflective that if appears to be black, with little to no scratch pattern to speak of, and a dead even and fine straight cutting edge.

Now to the shave den....3 passes later, I have the smoothest and most irritation free bbs shave I've ever achieved from my own honing job. It's seriously amazing! I highly recommend that anyone who uses a coti to finish, check out drmatt357 on the tube, and try this slurry free method of finish. You won't be disappointed in the least!

Thanks for the info. I've never tried it under running water, but I've finished on coticules sans slurry for 8 years, and still do. :)

Thanks for the drmatt info. I will definitely try this method. I have long been a fan of the unicot method with great success.

Mhh ok nothing new but yes it works, why shouldnt it ? You can do this with Thuris, Jnats and many other stones, surely with coticules...i prefer to do so with thuris and Jnats sometimes....

For us old hands it's nothing new but for the uninitiated honers new the sport, it tends to be interesting and valuable info.

Isn't our primary purpose to help those in need? There are pleas for assistance on a daily basis coming from new guys........ ©[:- ))))))

Personally I have always preferred to use only water on my coticules when razor honing. Slurry honing - at least with my particular stones - convexes the edge enough that it takes a lot of work to get back to the edge through dilution back to straight water again. Sometimes I will do unicot with a razor and use slurry though. All of my coticules are ridiculously quick with slurry, but much slower and finer on straight water once they're "broken-in," or burnished up a bit.

My bad, I didn't mean to imply that you don't know everything already. This was actually meant for those that are die hard slurry honers, not honing royalty like yourself sir. I should probably take this article down since it's such obvious information huh? I mean it's pretty basic stuff, right?

?? Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? :hmmm:

Looks like a bit of "Drama"....

Great you share your findings here and great that that you refer to Dr. Matts Videos which are really excellent...

Actually depeding from this you should be able to accept that for some people this is no news....

well great you did it...many others did before....many new honers will do in future....

Not to disrespect anyone here, or their ideas, but finishing under running water is nothing new. It was discussed on the old coticule.be, and if memory serves, no one laid claim to being the discoverer, or calling it "his" method. I'm sure the technique has been used for a long time.
I guess my skin is more sensitive than some, because with my better coticules, I still finish on faint slurry.

I still don't get what caused a ruckus. I guess nobody else is allowed to relate their own experiences.

Meh, it's good information to have. But I've seen the method suggested a few times in relation to coticules. Seems like some of them auto slurry so well they need a constant flow to keep from building up. One day I'd like to get hold of one to play with.

This also makes me ponder the merits of a self contained 'honing sink' that recycles water so you don't need to constantly drip otherwise good water down the drain. :thinking:

Well, I may not necessarily agree with everyone here all the time, but the group had never been anything but helpful, and quite courteous and respectful. Especially compared with some of the other communities I've been involved with over the years. Good luck at Badger & Blade, but from what I've seen you can expect a relatively similar response there. Many people are members of both.

Unnecessary post and a couple that had it quoted in there have been deleted out by the Mod Team...

You are more than welcome to pm me, or another mod if yours was taken down and you still have questions..

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Originally Posted by Dramadon3151

After a long and tedious chase to locate and purchase a coticule that I feel can finish a razor as well as any high end jnat, I finally found the one.
I used the stone with great delight, and produced edges that are supremely smooth, compared to the synthetic edges I am so used to. You can imagine my Cheshire lIke grin, as I shaved a full 3 passes with ultimate comfort.
After a while, I decided to look at the tube to see if there are any methods of finishing with a coti that would increase the keenness and still hold onto the smooth buttery feeling that we all love so much.
What I found was a method from a tuber named drmatt357. A finishing technique that uses no slurry, only honing under running water.
I went to the sink, and began the course. After only a couple of minutes I started to get a very sticky, squeegy like feeling on the stone. This, drmatt357 said, is what I'm looking for. Once I achieved this feeling on the hone, I did just a few more passes with little to no pressure at all, and went to the strop to align and clean it all up.
What I saw under the scope was nothing short of amazing. A bevel that is so highly reflective that if appears to be black, with little to no scratch pattern to speak of, and a dead even and fine straight cutting edge.

Now to the shave den....3 passes later, I have the smoothest and most irritation free bbs shave I've ever achieved from my own honing job. It's seriously amazing! I highly recommend that anyone who uses a coti to finish, check out drmatt357 on the tube, and try this slurry free method of finish. You won't be disappointed in the least!

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I've watched his videos on the coticule and love them.

It´s a nice series from Matt and fun to watch. I have tryed this and gets great edges from coticules, and fastest possible to. It works for hard Jnats to and harder then better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWO2TAfRGQM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXHsETAasqc

I USED to hone that way on coticules. I should back up--

I've been posting a lot lately. As one member put it, I'm late to this old party! But I've been knocking out killer edges off my coticule lately.

You can get suction without running water. Seriously. Dr. Matt pointed me in the right direction, but ultimately, I prefer a coti after bevel setting. Dr. Matt's method relies on a predicate edge being done on a 5k stone. It's really not that far off from what Solitary Soldier's been getting at, just set the bevel and hit the wata! I don't have a 5k. I don't even think the suction has to do with cotis exclusively --I recently got the exact same suction on a Chinese 12k. Keep the stone REALLY wet, not kind of wet, not moist, im talking WET, and boom, the razor sticks.

You can get suction on a coticule using no pressure keeping a LOT of water on the hone. How? Dilute heavy every ~20-30 laps. Dip the razor in water, use a spray bottle, dunk it in koolaid for all I care. Want more suction? Do circles instead of X stokes.

By the 3-6 set, depending on how slow the coti is, believe me, it will suck into the stone. Try it. It works on BBWs too.
If the bevel is set the razor will squeak, and eventually the stone will pull the razor so hard it can't move. Love that feeling. Yes, every coti is different -- all six of my garnet style stones will do this. Recently, on a soft ark with slurry, I got suction with the 20/dip the razor sequence.

I like his video because it opens up a convo about slurry and convexing the edge--that auto slurry could be equally devastating as the slurry you see on top. If you take a coti slurry on a black ark, no dulling. You take a coti slurry on a CNAT, no dulling. You take a coti slurry on a soft ark, no dulling. But if you use coti slurry on a coti, Welcome to Tijuana! (er, Belgium).

I found another way recently. I still dilute every 25 or so laps (I can't count anymore!) but I use torque. No feedback unless I back up on pressure, but if I back up on pressure, I risk convexing the edge. With torque and frequent dilutions, I can get a much better HHT response.

The idea behind the way I hone is to actually USE the auto slurry, not dismiss it. Just keep diluting.

I should use just water on my stones after setting the bevel and see what happens. Not a bad idea or experiment. The suction, ah man I miss that! But with torque I never felt the need to find a faucet I can hone more under.

But yea, his post was epic for me. What I didn't like was that he later came up with a modification of his own modification which was actually a modification of a modification of several modifications of how to use coticules. The rabbit hole goes deep. Torque was the rope I needed, at least for my hone.

Yup, Matt is a member here and for some reason his videos, rub some the wrong way. He is just enthusiastic about his findings and enjoys spreading the word. He is very knowledgeable about stones, honing and stropping, and is a nice guy.

Matts videos have helped a lot of folks and brought many to the hobby.

Yes, the water technique is not new, but as Mrsell said, not everybody has heard about it.

Years ago, the late, great Pixelfixed, made a great very cool, jig with a drip system that he could regulate to drip or stream water over his stone as he honed, over his sink bridge. Typical of Pix, it was immaculate in design and construction. As I recall it was made from stainless.

There are photos of it, in old post, though I don’t think he ever posted about it specifically, so that you could search for it.

Old Pixelfixed was quite the ingenious guy. I do miss his posts.

The majority of the stuff we talk about is not new, but it is to new guys.

As Lynn says, “Have Fun”…

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Yup, Matt is a member here and for some reason his videos, rub some the wrong way. He is just enthusiastic about his findings and enjoys spreading the word. He is very knowledgeable about stones, honing and stropping, and is a nice guy.

Matts videos have helped a lot of folks and brought many to the hobby.

Yes, the water technique is not new, but as Mrsell said, not everybody has heard about it.

...snip...

As Lynn says, “Have Fun”…

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I don't see what anyone can have against his videos, the ones I've seen are rather informative and insightful. I admit his ultra-peppy hyper enthusiastic personality takes some getting used to, but it doesn't take away from the knowledge contained in his videos. I've learned quite a bit from his videos.

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Originally Posted by J743

I USED to hone that way on coticules. I should back up--

I've been posting a lot lately. As one member put it, I'm late to this old party! But I've been knocking out killer edges off my coticule lately.

You can get suction without running water. Seriously. Dr. Matt pointed me in the right direction, but ultimately, I prefer a coti after bevel setting. Dr. Matt's method relies on a predicate edge being done on a 5k stone. It's really not that far off from what Solitary Soldier's been getting at, just set the bevel and hit the wata! I don't have a 5k. I don't even think the suction has to do with cotis exclusively --I recently got the exact same suction on a Chinese 12k. Keep the stone REALLY wet, not kind of wet, not moist, im talking WET, and boom, the razor sticks.

You can get suction on a coticule using no pressure keeping a LOT of water on the hone. How? Dilute heavy every ~20-30 laps. Dip the razor in water, use a spray bottle, dunk it in koolaid for all I care. Want more suction? Do circles instead of X stokes.

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DrMatt also has an interesting follow up video to that series that shows precisely why I now abstain from using circles. Let me see if I can...aha! Found it! You might have seen it, but for those that haven't stumbled into it yet here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to5Z-EFGDBY

So, this video entails why I don't do circles on naturals anymore. I don't think this is a coticule specific issue, I have a Black Welsh slate that has something embedded somewhere and if I'm not careful about it I can do some serious damage, otherwise it's an excellent finisher that leaves a finer edge than the LM I got from AJ on Ebay. I think it's just a one off random inclusion so I'm gonna try to lap it out this weekend, otherwise I may have to contact the seller about an exchange.

I don't have a 5K stone either, but I have found the Norton 4K to be a very user friendly stone to make the jump over to Naturals from. It can be done from 1K up, and sometimes I do exactly that for practice or amusement. But 4-5K strikes a nice balance between speed and fun IMO.

Aha!

Ya found it! I've seen it. Matts awesome, and he recommends a flax linen strop on another video that's next on my list of buys.

It's really weird you say you don't do circles anymore, I just finished a restore on a coticule with only x strokes. An even smoother shave today than previous. Guess I'm a convert now!

Dr. Matt's method was good. Don't get me wrong.

This is how I hone on a coticule.

Running water is good too! Just get that thing sharp!


https://youtu.be/Pe-DLGC1F1M

Maetro Livi has a video in which he finishes with a coticule under running water.

This is really making me want to snoop around antique stores to find a coticule to play with. I typically use a stroke I borrowed from Gary Haywood:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAcsGnajQyQ

I'm a bit more mechanical with it though. If I'm really trying to work through material, like bevel setting I'll do sets of 20 and check every 2-3 sets. Otherwise I'll typically do a 20/10/5/3/2 back and forth stroke pattern on each side, then follow up with 10-20 X strokes to cover any burrs that may have arose due to the edge trailing strokes. Then I'll check and see where I'm at. If I like where it is, I'll dilute the slurry. If not I'll run the pattern again. Typically I dilute by spraying a line of water down the center of the hone and possibly scooping some material off with a razor stroke. It's not as much a gradual dilution as it is dilution by stages: thick/milky - medium/almost milky - thin/can see stone through slurry - almost pure water but still some slurry visible.

I don't know how well this will work with a coticule, but it works very well on a translucent Arkansas with coticule slurry.

There is a really simple reason why this works...for some stones.

Honing under running water is a way to compensate for a friable stone which may realease larger particles that can be rinsed away by a water flow.
IOW you can finish a razor on a not very hard stone by honing under a tap. it will not make one iota of difference on an adequately hard & fine finisher.

A razor sticking to a stone means you have a polished bevel sticking to a flat stone, not necessarily a set bevel.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

A razor sticking to a stone means you have a polished bevel sticking to a flat stone, not necessarily a set bevel.

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Agreed. But that sticky feeling is a good sign that the stone has polished the edge as much as it can. Makes it a good indicator when to stop and check with a loupe or hair test or something of that nature.

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Originally Posted by Marshal

Agreed. But that sticky feeling is a good sign that the stone has polished the edge as much as it can. Makes it a good indicator when to stop and check with a loupe or hair test or something of that nature.

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Possibly so or it could mean you've already honed past a good edge. It's not an absolute indicator to rely on.

Interesting...I'll have to keep that in mind.

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Originally Posted by Dramadon3151

After a long and tedious chase to locate and purchase a coticule that I feel can finish a razor as well as any high end jnat, I finally found the one.
I used the stone with great delight, and produced edges that are supremely smooth, compared to the synthetic edges I am so used to. You can imagine my Cheshire lIke grin, as I shaved a full 3 passes with ultimate comfort.
After a while, I decided to look at the tube to see if there are any methods of finishing with a coti that would increase the keenness and still hold onto the smooth buttery feeling that we all love so much.
What I found was a method from a tuber named drmatt357. A finishing technique that uses no slurry, only honing under running water.
I went to the sink, and began the course. After only a couple of minutes I started to get a very sticky, squeegy like feeling on the stone. This, drmatt357 said, is what I'm looking for. Once I achieved this feeling on the hone, I did just a few more passes with little to no pressure at all, and went to the strop to align and clean it all up.
What I saw under the scope was nothing short of amazing. A bevel that is so highly reflective that if appears to be black, with little to no scratch pattern to speak of, and a dead even and fine straight cutting edge.

Now to the shave den....3 passes later, I have the smoothest and most irritation free bbs shave I've ever achieved from my own honing job. It's seriously amazing! I highly recommend that anyone who uses a coti to finish, check out drmatt357 on the tube, and try this slurry free method of finish. You won't be disappointed in the least!

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To each there own, but the method you are advocating suggests that a coticule should be used as a finisher only. To me, finishing a razor on a coticule after a progression of synthetics is like reheating a pre-cooked tv dinner.

Unless there are chips on the edge, I like setting the bevel on the coticule with a thick slurry followed by dilution to plain water.

Slurry can be your friend.

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Originally Posted by Badgister

To each there own, but the method you are advocating suggests that a coticule should be used as a finisher only. To me, finishing a razor on a coticule after a progression of synthetics is like reheating a pre-cooked tv dinner.

Unless there are chips on the edge, I like setting the bevel on the coticule with a thick slurry followed by dilution to plain water.

Slurry can be your friend.

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Slurry can also restrict keenness. It's a double edges sword. the sharpest edges I can achieve have been made with a slurry free techniques.

Sure, which is why ultimately the finishing is done with water only. Slurry when used skilfully is what makes one stone honing possible.

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Originally Posted by Badgister

Slurry when used skilfully is what makes one stone honing possible on stones that actually cut steel.

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For the ymmv crowd. I've tried a coticule that produced zero swarf on a thick slurry in a reasonable time. I'd say it was the gentlest slowest stone I've ever seen. Definitely not a one stone honer.