crash course in japanese stones

okay, so i'm looking for someone to give me a crash course on the different japanese stones, maybe give me a few good links so i can read and do some research

more specifically i'm looking for something that would be suitable to use with a japanese razor(tosuke) (don't got one but i want to know what i would all need if i ever do...and i love the japanese culture)

the cost-saving alternative would be something like this:

packaging says it's 12k grit
http://www.geocities.com/eric_kluk/img10173012559.jpg

this is looks to be 12k grit (looking at the little yellow oval)
http://www.geocities.com/eric_kluk/img10581887510.jpg

this one looks to be the same one but mounted on a base
http://www.geocities.com/eric_kluk/img10581822867.jpg

all 3 appear to be shaptons. would these suitable? are all 3 the same or are there different kinds of stones from shapton?

looking to hear from someone with experience sharpening one of those suckers

The fact is there are more types of Japanese Hones both manmade and natural then western type hones, or to me it seems that way. If you want a hone for the Tosuke any 8K or 12 K stone will do it doesn't have to be japanese. I have a 12K Kitayama which is what the razor specifies (the grit not the brand) but you could use a coticule you would just adjust your routine a bit.

Check out this site http://www.namikawa-ltd.co.jp/cgi-bin/list_e.cgi#9 they sell sword makers stones. They classify their stones according to grit size and purpose and within each stone type there are variations and within the variations there are often times many many grades so it can get complicated.

The general proceedure for sharpening a Tosuke is three round trips moving back and forth with medium pressure using both hands on the concave side to two similar strokes on the convex side. That doesn't mean you can't cheat with a pasted strop though to hurry things up.

Oh your original question about the stones, they are all shaptons. I don't know if they are the same grit or not but they are all manmade.

If you want a japanese Hone avail yourself of the auction service and get a natural stone, then you'll have a real prize.

i'd love a nice japanese stone, but they can be pricey and harder to find and they do have the variations and different grades, so i wouldn't even know where to start (hence asking about it) like you said, it can get complicated

could the japanese razor be honed using a traditonal edge-leading only stroke? this would require you to do a stroke, lift the razor, return to the start and repeat two more time, do the same thing on the other side two times. the backhoning thing seems counterintuitive to what we traditional know/do...but hey, if thats what works.

what about something like this:
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=4920

Since shapton make a number of models of equal grit you can find them at a range of prices. Maybe you'd be best buying one which is slightly slower and cheaper like the m5 in your pics as you'd probably never get through a pro series.
I seem to recall something about a thinner series but it may be from another maker.
Shapton now market a 15k one in the west and I think this replaces the 12k.

Hi Eric,

I have the 12k shapton in your first picture. Is is from the professional series here. The M5 (in the second pic) is standard and about half the price here in Japan as the first one.

The 12k pro seems to cut fast for a 12k but I am still trying to confirm if it can give a good final polish or not (still trying to get my SS Dovo to pass the hanging hair test, or even to give a good smooth shave, but I think it is me and not the stone that is the problem :( )

well i did a lot of reading looking for 12k grit stones, this is basically what i found:

shapton makes the 12k stone in japan and the 15k in the west. shapton color codes there stones (both cases and stone) which leads some ppl to think that the 12k japanese stone is the same as the 15k western stone, since they have the same colours but thats total speculation

The Shapton model M5 is 8¼" x 2¾" x ¾". However, only 1/4" is abrasive material. The other ½" is a ceramic supporting material which is laminated to the #12000 grit material.

The Shapton model M15 the same as the M5 but is a solid 8-1/4" x 2-3/4" x 5/8" #12000 grit abrasive laminated to a wooden base with rubber feet to give a non-slip working surface.

This were said to be a good economical substitute for Honyama Awase stones.

The difference between the Professional and M15 series is that the professional series stones have 30% more particles by volume than the M series.

I read about the shapton stones that it is easy to contaminate with coarser grits which scratches the surface (especially if you try to lap it). Another person said "The Shapton M15 also rates very highly (and will form a slurry, unlike the Shapton pro stones)... The M15 series acts more like a traditional waterstone and is different from their professional stones. As for the 12k Shapton M5 stone... it is cheap, but is just a thin layer of pro-stone abrasive on a ceramic substrate (It has a slightly lower concentration of abrasives than the pro stone so will cut slightly slower than the pro line and the surface will craze, but the M5 series are okay for light use, and, since they work and feel like the pro stones, they are an economical way to see what the pro stones are like before actually buying a set of the more expensive pro/kuromaku stones"

There is also the Kitayama which is actually an 8000 grit stone which has a practical performance of around 12000, and as such is often listed as a 12000 "The Kitayama is an 8k stone with some ground up natural stone in it, so it tends to feel more like a natural stone and will form a slurry that will crush to about 12k between the knife and the stone, so for best results, you have to work the mud"
http://japanwoodworker.com/product.a...&dept_id=13118

It's not quite 12000, but ppl seem to like the Naniwa 10000 stone
http://japanwoodworker.com/product.a...&dept_id=13118

Again, not quite 12000, but ppl seem to like the Ice Bear 10000 stone, and it's quite reasonably priced
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/M...egory_Code=THW
or
http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/i...OD&ProdID=5530

i think as far as ease of attaining and price goes, the lower end shaptons may be my best choice, they may even be improved with the use of a nagura?

Can anyone tell me anything about these stones?

Mined near Kyoto, these stones are Honyama brand, highly respected for quality. They are natural Japanese finishing water stones. Honyama stones are appropriate for Japanese chisels in the Rc62 range and all Western-style chisels and plane blades.

This stone is 6-7/8" x 2-1/2" x 3/4"
Top - http://www.geocities.com/eric_kluk/99w3415v1.jpg
Bottom - http://www.geocities.com/eric_kluk/99w3415v2.jpg

This stone is 6" x 2-1/8" x 11/16"
Top - http://www.geocities.com/eric_kluk/99w3416v1.jpg
Bottom - http://www.geocities.com/eric_kluk/99w3416v2.jpg

This is all I know about these stones. I have no idea what grit they are.
Seems like Honyama is known for Awase stones that are in the 8k git range? Could these be Awase stones?

Can anyone read the markings on the stones? Can anyone tell me what the heck they are?

these stones look very similar to the ones on Master Takedas site under Ohira:
http://shop.niimi.okayama.jp/kajiya/en/index_e.html

If it's a proper honyama it would probably be from shobou or nakayama iirc but the name is now used as a general term as well. The back is similar to some I've seen from the above but I don't recall the kanji being the same. If I had to guess I'd have gone for one of the less well known mines but I really couldn't say.
Yellow ones are often considered to be very good.

and a kanji is what? is either of these yellow?

I think they would both be classed as yellow ( which is called something like kita iirc.) The first one is more like the yellow ones I've seen from one of the above mines I think. The blue/grey ones are also supposed to be good.

Kanji are the characters used in Chinese and Japanese writing. Well one kind as they have different types of writing like katakana for foreign words or to sort of spell something out or make certain people can read it. Not forgetting other kana like hirigana etc. I really don't know how anyone manages to learn the language!

This is all just little bits and pieces I've picked up here and there as there doesn't seem to be any books available on the subject so it's all a bit difficult for us to get to grips with the subject. In other words take it all with a little pinch of salt as I'm not 100% sure of the facts. :)

well that would make sense since the first one is priced a little higher. but that could be cuz it's bigger too

i just can't let go of how much it looks like the stone from takeda's site, but of course looking the same and being the same are two different things

the website also says this "The grade ranking indicates the overall quality of the stone as determined by the probability of a flaw being present and by its size. An 'A' grade stone is the highest quality stone with both the lowest flaw probability and the largest size. 'B' and 'B1' grade stones are also high quality, but are smaller, 'B1' being the smallest. Minimum stone dimensions are stated in the price lines."

the first stone is rated B, the second is B1

I can't help you with the types of japanese stones but as far as honing the Tosuke I found that using the usual western style honing proceedure simply did not work on that razor. Once I used the proper proceedure it honed right up. You can use a pasted strop to put that final edge on it but there too you should use the same ratio of strokes. You have to realize the edge is asymetrical unlike western razors so if you start doing equal honing your going to mess up that symmetry and wind up with I don't know what. It seemed to me the key to honing was using the correct amount of equal downward pressure on the razor as you hone. You just need to experiment and check every few strokes and either increase or decrease the pressure as need be. At first it seems like the perfect honing task for a hamhanded honer but there really is finesse in it.

Hmmmm,

I used the traditional western style honing method for honing my new Tosuke, took it to the coticule then a pasted strop = Fantastic shave. I guess I got lucky :D

YMMV

Quote:

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Originally Posted by padron

Hmmmm,

I used the traditional western style honing method for honing my new Tosuke, took it to the coticule then a pasted strop = Fantastic shave. I guess I got lucky :D

YMMV

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Do you use the Tosuke on both sides or only the concave side towards your face? The sharpening method should affect this. The western method will give you more of an equal two sided razor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Do you use the Tosuke on both sides or only the concave side towards your face? The sharpening method should affect this. The western method will give you more of an equal two sided razor.

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I shaved with it on both sides, I used western style honing and kept a close eye on the bevel. The Tosuke razor was popping arm hairs when I received it, it didn't take more than a few laps on the coticule and I finished with .5 Chromium, it worked great....one of the better shaves I've had in a while..:shrug: