I was going to get around to helping him but thanks for doing it for me.
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I was going to get around to helping him but thanks for doing it for me.
No probs Ron. It was bugging me I couldn't find Erics tutorial quicker :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock27
Hey Glock, sorry was not on line earlier.
If you see a line in a thread that is underlined it is a link, usually to the post that they are talking about, just click on it and it will take you automatically to the thread so you can read it.
I the case you are talking about it is the Second Try at Honing thread.
Here it is again, just click on the underlined section above.
And don’t use the diamond plates to hone on, you can use them for repairs but they will cause some deep scratches that will take a lot of honing to remove.
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate it more than you could recognize. The water stones I have are Norton, and one Chinese water stone listed as 15,000 grit. I primarily stay with the Arkansas stones; it just takes so much time to set the water stones up, soaking them for 30 minutes, having a water tub to set the stones over and keeping them wet. I feel about the same with the diamond hones I have. Problem there is that the water will not stay evenly spread across the hones--the water beads up.
I have a 10x loop and when I check the edge of the Joseph Allen I can see tiny nicks and the edge looks rugged. I have contemplated taping the spine and going at it. I have been reading the library page, but so far I have come across nothing that seems revelatory for me, or strikes me "Ah Ha!".
It is odd that I have been using a straight razor for at least or close to 40 years and don't know squat. I have just thought, sharpen and shave, however it seems to take me for ever to get the blade right. The reason for that is that I have recognized I know nothing about straight razors.
I am blabbing now so I will stop.
With All Due Respect
Glock 27(Tom)
Thanks Onimaru55. I shall give it a go. Much appreciated.
Tom - I bought a shallow cookie pan for my water hones. They get soaked about 10 to 15 minutes before use, I set them up on one of the Norton boxes in the cookie pan so the edge of the pan isn't in the way. I keep a spray bottle of water handy for when the hones dry out.
Usually I'll toss the hone(s) I want to use in a bucket, and by the time my honing station is setup they're ready to roll. The hard part for me is leaving them out to dry up after use.
Thanks Marshall. I really appreciate your response. I just soaked my Norton. It is a two sided stone 1000/2000. . I am curious about taping the spine. I am using a 10x loop and the edge looks rough. I have gone about 60 laps and there appears to be little change. Can you advise about how much I should do. Currently I can draw the blade across my thumb pad with no cutting. In the past I just kept going and going and going. I don't know if you can do too much. How do you know you are over honing a blade?
You cannot hone by formula, especially when bevel setting. You will have to use however many laps are necessary to join the two bevels into an edge. With some razors, this may be a few dozen; with others it can be hundreds. Do not worry about over honing - getting the bevels to meet is your first priority. Once they are joined, there will be no shadows or reflections at the very edge and it should shave arm hair easily.
Your best bet is to use a sharpie on the bevel. Some recommend putting the edge on the felt and running it across the blade. I don't mind getting sharpie everywhere, so I start about 1/16" to 1/8" beyond the bevel on the blade and run the sharpie out. It's slower, so you have to make 50 or so 'dashes' perpendicular to the bevel, but it will cover the whole bevel. I recommend a red or green. Seems to be easier on the eyes than black, especially with a 10x loupe. From there, do 2-3 passes on the stone. Then look at what sharpie is left, that will indicate where you are missing and will have to adjust your stroke to cover the whole edge. At 1000/2000, you won't really "over-hone" but remove more steel than necessary, which is pretty inevitable while learning or changing old habit. To save metal and make it easier, you can use only the 2000 side for bevel setting. It will take longer, but it will work. Always, always, always end each stone with light pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock27
I wouldn't worry about actually testing the bevel until the edge of the razor has the roughness removed and is completely even. At that point, I would test on various limb hair and look for reflections. I use a 60x loupe and check my bevel from every single possible angle to see anything out of place. However, that is overkill. A 30x-40x loupe can be reasonably purchased from various places under 5 bucks.
A mention on pressure. I use very light pressure on everything and purposefully work slowly, constantly checking with my loupe every 10-15 strokes. I will spend at least 45 minutes on each stone (after the bevel is set). I have done it faster, but this isn't a race and it isn't (well, some of us) our job. Rushing our honing (unless you've honed hundreds or thousands, even then maybe not) is only going to make twice as much work. Slow down, grab a cold beverage of choice and work each stone until it can improve your edge no more.
Tom - like they said, it take what it takes. Usually I'll do a set amount of strokes, somewhere between 20 and 40, then check to see if the edge is suitable. How many passes between checks depends on how dull the blade is.
You mentioned that you like your Arkansas stones. There are things you can do to speed them up. Have you seen this thread?
http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...lurry-ark.html
A small piece of coticule for the experiment costs about 15 bucks from Straight Razor Designs, I just got one myself to experiment with. You can also rough up your soft Arkie with a Diamond hone around 300 to 400 grit, maybe the same for the hard but around 1000. Just to keep them cutting quick and unburnished. Solitary Soldier left a nice video in his thread detailing the method. It sounds like you've got the hones, just need a little practice and patience, and maybe higher magnification. I like 60x so I can see what's going on at the very edge.
I don't think I've ever Ober honed anything. But I've definitely under-honed an edge. I think that problem is more common than over honing.
SQZBRX: You have an interesting point. How I have managed all these years I don't know. I guess I have been lucky. Now, how can you tell that you have achieved a bevel on the blade. I have been working the dickens out of a Joseph Allen. Spent about two hours today on a Norton 1000 grit water stone. Far more than 100 laps and I can still stroke it down my thumb pad and not slice skin. Shaving arm hair? All it does is push the hair down. I am getting close to pitching the damned thing.
Thanks dinnermint. I appreciate your in-put. I will give this a try. I am getting weary grinding, so weary. I have been lucky in the past that the razors I got seemed to be in good shape and have been able to maintain even at my level of ignorance.
As suggested, mark both sides of the bevel with a permanent marker then take a normal honing lap and check under magnification with good light. It will become very clear when the bevels are meeting and you will most definitely not be able to stroke it on your thumb without medical attention. Regarding your Norton 1k, try lapping it to refresh the surface - I had to do that every hundred laps or so when I was using one. Also, if you are using tape, be sure to change it when it starts to show wear. As it erodes, it effectively reduces the angle on the hone and causes the very edge to lift. Fresh tape or no tape will keep you honing at the edge.
Tom, you can do a full progression on Arks, (typically a Washita, Hard Ark and Translucent or Surgical Black), but if you have a Norton 1k, use it to set the bevel.
Put 2 layers of electrical tape on the spine and Ink the bevel with a sharpie as said.
Lap your Norton with your medium grit Diamond plate, make sure to bevel the edges.
Do one lap on the 1k and look at the bevel. See if you are honing, (removing ink) all the way to the edge. Then hone the razor in a series of 10 circles on each side, until you are able to hone the complete bevel to the edge.
Keep applying ink as you continue to do circles, once you can remove all the ink in a set of 10 circles, ink the bevels again and now do X strokes to even out the bevels and lay down an even stria pattern.
If you have a hard Ark, you can now move to the hard ark, once you have an even stria pattern and flat bevel.
Stay on the hard ark until all the 1k stria is removed, then move to a Translucent or Surgical Black Hard Ark to finish. Finishing will take 200 or more laps.
If you would like, send me your razors, or at least a couple. I will hone them and send them back as soon as possible. You can then maintain them on your Arks. It will cost you about 6 buck to send one razor or 12 to send 2-3, from the Post Office and they give you the box. PM me if you are interested.
sabxr: Thanks. I believe you said green or red Sharpe?
I know the thumb pad trick is not too bright, but I don't bear down to make a deep cut. I do it when I feel it cut and they are quite light. I have noticed, for myself, the because the edge cuts arm hair doesn't always shave well. I have used a razor when it cut arm hair which is lighter than beard hair for some reason. Beard hair seems, to me, to be more course. I have light hair to begin with, what is left of it.
Thank you for the offer. I will certainly consider it. First I need to make the effort on my own. I really don't have a lot of time. Currently I have seven that are well sharpened. Some times I get lucky, especially if the razor I get is already in good condition, It is just the Joseph Allen I have and a couple of others like the Electric Co. The JA I recently bought, the Electric Co. I have had for years. I had given up on it and recently brought it out along with a few more I never did anything with. Note. The JA was not in the best of condition. Again, thanks for the offer. I will paste your note to keep on hand if I need to get in touch with you for the offer. Again thanks.
You seem to be having one hell of a time with that razor. You might want to lay the blade flat on your hone, and tap on the corners. That will tell you if the razor is laying flat on the hone like you need it to, or if there is some underlying geometry issue with the blade. If it stays flat, the geometry is ok. If it wobbles, it may need corrective action. You might also want to check for a frowning edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock27
Geometry issues are certainly worth checking but not many razors lay flat on a hone nor do they need corrective action unless extremely warped or frowning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal
Finding the stroke that works will solve most problems.
Marshal,
5mm from the toe of the blade it begins to widen to about 2mm. it then tapers down to a thin heel. This is all on the right side of the blade with the cutting edge facing you. It thickens from here and extends for about 35 to 36 mm in length. On the opposite side the toe and heel of the blade are thicker grinds about 2mm where the rest of the blade appears to be normal. Looking at the spine of the blade it mimics the cutting edge. The right side is a frown and the left side is a smile. Go figure. I am uncertain how much time I am going to spend on this loose and I would not want to lay this task to someone else unless they have the mechanized equipment to make quick work of the issue.
onimaru55.
You mention finding the right stroke will solve most problems. Forgive me of my ignorance, but I only know of one stroke. Starting with the toe end of the blade on the stone and moving it down ending with the heal. On the return it is heel to toe. I sharpen everything this way. When I hone the razor, I lay it completely flat on the stone.
Sounds to me like the way I used to sharpen knives. Try this, it may help you out:
https://youtu.be/
Marshal,
Thanks for the link. I would love to go there and watch, but I have DSL internet with a "Fair Usage" attached, ergo, watching youtube sucks up all my time. Just one 20 minutes of youtube brings an end to my internet use.
Thanks for all your effort. I appreciate what you have provided.
Glock27, do you have any friend or acquaintance that has better access to online videos? Watching a few honing videos, or getting help in person, would definitely improve your honing.
I can't second this enough, getting help locally you will learn more in a few hours one on one than you would in a month with youtube videos.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
Utopian,
No I don't. I am pretty much locked into DSL. Right now I am down to 85% of internet time remaining from my provider via their
Fair Use" policy.
I have an electric hone I can set up to attempt to correct the problem then sharpen with my stones, but I am a bit anxious about using it. The device is a spinning water hone. Angles can be set up on it, but I am not really sure how I should set it up. Tape the spine and go at it or leave the spine open on the rotating hone. I goes at a low speed.
since I have considered just pitching the razor I just might give it a go. Not committed yet.
Thanks for your efforts. It is appreciated.
Have a good read thru this & learn different strokes amongst other things:Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock27
Honing: Troubleshooting Guide - Straight Razor Place Library
Nuuuuuuuuuuuuuu ! Don't do it !Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock27
Removing bucket loads of steel on a power tool is no substitute for a geometry assessment & subsequent corrective honing.
Agreed.
Do NOT use any power equipment on a razor.
Where are you in Michigan? We need to find someone near you to give you help in person.
Let us know, I have been meaning to go on a roadtrip
Actually, are you anywhere near Ann Arbor? I too need to make a road trip. I have a college room-mate that lives there and I'm supposed to visit him some time this summer.
Not real close. I am in Midland City, Midland County. Ann Arbor is south of me. It is a three hour drive from Ann Arbor to here. I think if you draw a straight line from Midland down, Detroit is more to the east of me and Ann Arbor is more to the west. I have been here 47 years and still don't know my way around without a map,
Thank you Onimaru55,
I have razors with smiles and frowns, and most all of them the spine edge is worn and match the cutting edge. I went through the section you suggested and the sharpening manners. None match my approach which may be my problem. I do have 7 to 8 decent to good razors, it's just some of the new ones I have bought. I have gone back to the Norton water stones to see if it may help as they are a wider stone than my Arkansas.
You can probably force a razor to conform to a singular honing method but that may be like regrinding by hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock27
Sometimes best to ride the horse in the direction it's pointing.
The width of a stone wont be as big an influence as how you utilise it.
I think it's been suggested but good pics of the problem razors would help us to help you.
I have to extend to you my appreciation for your replies.. In part my problem can also arrive out of stress since we have moved. As I have mentioned I am 71 and have Osteoarthritis which has impacted my life, then there are arising and unanticipated problems which do not help. Recently I had to dump a huge pile of money into having my basement lined with a drain system to my crock where my sump pump lines, and the problems of this nature seem to keep landing. I have mower problems which keeps sending it back to the shop, a 3 I attempt to use the razors as a distraction8 year old son living at home who is virtually helpless. and eats up my internet time. I refuse to buy more time so he can waste it. This stuff keeps piling up and attempting to correct razors is not helping them I guess.
I have viewed the library. It is 6:30 here and an opportunity to watch a short video, but it still eats my
Fair Useage up"
Thanks again for your kindness and consideration of my delemmas (sp) I have faced.
A big thanks to Euclid and his advice to me in post #33. Yesterday I managed to gain the success I was hoping for. I discovered the pressure needed to cut steel with my King on water alone. Two further points really stand out:
1. I could never tell when the bevels met. I didn't know what success looked like. So I killed the edge on my stone and took it outside and looked at it with naked eye. As I rotated the blade from face to face, at the top I could easily see the glint of bright flat steel on the edge. So that is what I do not want to see. A few minutes of circles on the King, a few more minutes of x-strokes and back into the sun we went. No glint from heel to toe, just darkness. Good.
2. A green marker is much much better than a black one. It is so much easier to see. And to see when/where it is gone after a couple x-strokes.
An extra 40 light x-strokes on the King when I was sure I had finished the bevel, then watched it effortlessly remove arm hair.
Dilucot on the coticule, then 200 on water alone... This morning's shave was very nice and very smooth. I've experienced the magic of some of Glen's edges, where the whiskers just seem to melt off; this morning was not that magical, but still very satisfying.
Thanks again to all who posted advice, and a very special thanks to Euclid for the explanation that finally made me understand.