Idea for measuring "honing pressure" in order to communicate it ...

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Originally Posted by aalbina

Ok - fair enough. I'm a scientist so complicating things is kind of what I do...

So how do the measurements translate in something a new honer can understand and apply? What does .5 lbs of pressure feel like? What does 5oz of pressure per square inch feel like? How does one take the measurements several of us have already done and learn from them? It's not the measurements that have the value to me - it's the translation of those hard data points into transferrable knowledge.

Adam

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I work in science too, but I consider my goal to be simplification. I choose not to complicate things for people who don't have the same level of understanding. A razor, a hone, and a postal or kitchen scale are the tools readily available to most people, so pressure measurements probably should not be complicated beyond their use.

Let's imagine the bevel setting (heavy) pressure is 5 lbs, sharpening (light) pressure is 1 lb, and no (weight of the blade) pressure is just a couple ounces. Then all a beginner needs is a thumb and a scale to get a sense of the appropriate pressures at each step.

That said, if you can come up with something more elaborate that can better help beginners, I'm all for it.

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Originally Posted by aalbina

Ok - fair enough. I'm a scientist so complicating things is kind of what I do...

So how do the measurements translate in something a new honer can understand and apply? What does .5 lbs of pressure feel like? What does 5oz of pressure per square inch feel like? How does one take the measurements several of us have already done and learn from them? It's not the measurements that have the value to me - it's the translation of those hard data points into transferrable knowledge.

Adam

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There really are just too many variables at work to set hard and fast rules on pressure and torque used in honing. The variables are which grind are you honing and then there is the individual razor which may or may not need more or less pressure/torque than the same grind razor you just did. Then there is dealing with warps and twists in the blade and so on.

It would be great if you could put a blade in a jig to apply the correct pressure and torque required, then turn the machine on for a predetermined number of strokes for the particular grit hone you are using at that stage in the process. You would have to have perfect blade to do this and that perfection must be in every blade to be honed. That is not likely to happen.

In the end it is down to trial and error till you most of the time get it right with enough experience.

Bob

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I work in science too, but I consider my goal to be simplification. I choose not to complicate things for people who don't have the same level of understanding. A razor, a hone, and a postal or kitchen scale are the tools readily available to most people, so pressure measurements probably should not be complicated beyond their use.

Let's imagine the bevel setting (heavy) pressure is 5 lbs, sharpening (light) pressure is 1 lb, and no (weight of the blade) pressure is just a couple ounces. Then all a beginner needs is a thumb and a scale to get a sense of the appropriate pressures at each step.

That said, if you can come up with something more elaborate that can better help beginners, I'm all for it.

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Of course, I was just kidding about purposefully complicating things as a scientist. I'm also an educator - as I posted in response to Glenn's excellent feedback.

As other's have pointed out (BobH, eKtretz and Glenn), and I suspect they are correct - there are likely too many variables to the process that will make the simple measurement of pressure an ineffective metric to explain that portion of the process. The hone, the condition of the blade, the experience of the honer will all translate to uncontrollable variables. If I created a "pressure guide" it would invariably be used incorrectly with a blade for which it was not intended, on a hone for which it was not intended, and a condition for which it was not appropriate. The end result would likely be higher frustration because a beginner might see it as a silver bullet and expectations would be higher. I could control most of those things in a classroom - but certainly not over the web.

Good discussion - thanks all.

Adam

I think the most helpful would be a "Do Not Ever Exceed This...." with the thinner blades. Of course, depending on how wide the blade is and how thin is thin. That would require much experimentation with a range of blades from different manufacturers.

Plus, ballpark numbers are nice for people to get a sense of what to see at what point in a more translatable fashion.

I have to agree with Glen, and others. Practice makes perfect ........ or thereabouts. Knowing how much pressure in increments is fine if you also know what the results of particular increments on particular blades will be. Hone long enough, with various razors, and you'll intuitively know what is working and what isn't. IME.

Just leaving this here for fun :p


Attachment 238065

Yes it really is an electric SR honing machine

Glen, did you buy that?

It works pretty well!

:w

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Originally Posted by AlienEdge

:roflmao I am kidding about the hammer, but I hope the mental picture of how much pressure to use is there.

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There is some credence to smash finger. In USMC marksmanship training I was taught to bite my trigger finger's nail hard to prevent jerking. By doing so I could not jerk the trigger if I tried. If it hurts you are applying to much pressure to fast. Har!!

I am very heavy handed needless to say. I trashed a few razors in a couple passes in the beginning. Har! In learning to strop I had to bite nails to get a feel for the light touch.

Learning to hone should be comical. I can picture cartoon looking red bulbous pulsating digits.

A new meaning to different strokes for different folks. :roflmao

Adam, I admire your enthusiasm for eliminating variables in this sport. Having been self educated in this myself, with the internet as a resource, I have also had a hard time translating the subjective descriptors. Brush characteristics & lather explanations come to mind.

I have a similar idea of uniform metrics that people could apply to brushes.

I find such intellectual exercises fun & exhilarating.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Just leaving this here for fun :p


Attachment 238065

Yes it really is an electric SR honing machine

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Video, or it didn't happen!!!

Ironically, I find that many guys, do not use enough pressure on the bevel set to get the bevel flat. We have drummed in the light pressure, so much that they don’t remove enough material to set a bevel fully.

It isn’t, so much the variables, it is, the target is constantly moving.

The mantra is, “You have to do, what the razor needs, (the moving target).

But first, you have to read the razor, to figure out what that is and that that may change.

The issue with formulaic honing is, none of us have exactly the same stone progression, same razor with the same grind and level of warp or other issue that the guy making the video did, (variables)…

The bottom line is, as Glen said, hone… same advice they give Athletes, Musicians, Writers, and Race Car drivers… seat time.

Or Hands on mentoring.

Can’t tell you how many guys say, “There are so many little things, that you just don’t get, in the videos, no matter how many times you watch.”

It really is about little things, like the elbow, stone prep, cleanliness (grit contamination), stroke and understanding, the adage, “Doing the same thing and expecting a different result, is…

You can, figure it out on your own, it just takes longer. It really is as simple as, Set the bevel, fully set the bevel, then just remove the previous stria with each subsequent stria.

Use some pressure to set the bevel, then do finish laps with lite pressure on your bevel setter. On each subsequent stone, use pressure to remove the stria, then lighten up on pressure, to polish and lay down a new stria pattern. As the grit get finer, you need less pressure.

If you use too much pressure and the edge becomes, ragged or chipping, just joint it, re-set it and move on.

Eventually you will get to where you understand what is needed and you can remove the stria and polish at the same time. Ink and magnification are inexpensive and your best friend, use them.