Honing “Tricks” or Tips to Get You “Over the Edge”

Hi All-Having recently posted that I was getting back into honing after a hiatus, I was still reluctant to tackle a few “problem” blades I had put in the bottom of my pile:
-One was a German “Improved Eagle” razor that had even frustrated Sham, whom you long-term members will remember; I’d get close to a bevel on it, and blow past it, or it would disappear, over and over. Just maddening!
-Another is a Case Tungsten Steel that had a swiss-cheese edge from old rust. No matter how much bread-knifing I did, I couldn’t seem to get past the micro-pitting and chipping. Well, I finally got through all that to good steel.
-And the last was an American razor, a Minnesota Chief with a pronounced swooping, smiling edge and full hollow that I always had trouble getting all parts of it honed. Here are the razors in question (yeah, I'm no photographer obviously!):
http://i767.photobucket.com/albums/x...psle4tivup.jpg


Anyway, I couldn’t sleep last night, and just decided to hell with it, I’m gonna get ‘em honed. Long story short is that I surprised myself by getting wicked edges on all three in short order by incorporating or remembering a number of tips or “tricks” I read about mostly here on SRP for getting over “the wall” when you feel stuck on a given razor. In no particular order:



Tape-I tape every razor I hone. I’m not saying others should or shouldn’t (I don’t want to start a “Tape War” hehe!); it’s just what works for me.



The Bevel-It really is all about the bevel, as Sixxgun always says. Like many beginners, I used to foolishly try to chase an edge up the grits when I hadn’t laid a proper foundation. But if it’s not quite there on the 1k, some very gentle circles on the 4k per Lynn’s video, followed up by sets of x-strokes, generally does the trick. I don’t’ move up until the edge passes all the standard tests from heel to toe-You can’t have dessert until you’ve eaten your vegetables!
Pressure-This one thing seems to be at the heart of many honing problems. Too much? Not enough? What I keep finding is that it’s more about a gentle torque of the edge rather than pressure. In any event, I also found that with these razors, a little more pressure or torque than I had been using put me over the edge, especially at the lower grits (Norton 1 and 4k). But I also found that a little bit of pressure or torque on the first set of even higher-grit stones really tweaks an edge even closer. For me that’s Norton 8k, Chinese PHIG, and Naniwa 12k. Of course lighten up as you go.



“Maxing out” each stone-Like many, I always scratched my head over when I was “done” on a given stone. Though I haven’t seen him in a while, I used to marvel over the smooth strokes and that magical level of “suction” CJBianco got when he would hone at my kitchen table. Somehow I seem to finally be there “stroke-wise,” and it has made all the difference. Honing with my left hand, what seems to make a big difference for me is the gentle guidance of my right finger and thumb in helping to keep ALL of the edge gliding across the stone.
“Surfing” the Wave-I like my women and my razors curvy, which has forced me, again, to be mindful of honing ALL of a razor’s edge. Add in wonky geometry and hone wear on some of my ancient Sheffields, and that can be a challenge. More and more I find myself subtly “rocking” the edge with a little help from that right finger. I now focus more on watching the wave of water from heel to toe as the edge “surfs” across the stone. Those pesky heels and toes are now evenly honed as they should be!



Dish soap: When I’ve felt 20 or so ultra-smooth stokes and know it’s almost “there,” maybe 15-20 ultra-light final strokes on a drop of dish soap and plain water is the final touch.



Stropping after each stone-I know it’s maybe not common or traditional, but kudos to whoever suggested this! After both the 4k and the 8k, I did 15 laps on CrOx linen and 50 on English bridle to sort of “set” or burnish the work from that stone, with the same after final finishing. This one trick really tweaked my final edges!



Finishing-My Chinese PHIG finally proved its $15 value after a couple of years of gathering dust. My latest finishing routine has really taken my edges to a new level of both sharp and smooth. I do about 50-60 strokes on slurry from the PHIG’s slurry stone, diluting with a couple squirts of water every 15-20 strokes. Follow that up with 15-20 strokes on the Naniwa 12k. Clean the PHIG under running water, and do maybe 25-30 strokes on just water. Final finish is 15-20 ultra-light strokes on water with a drop of dish liquid. Final stropping is the aforementioned 15 strokes on CrOx felt followed by 50-60 on English bridle.
Doing all of the above, I can see a difference under lighted magnification, HHT, and how each edge effortlessly tree-tops leg hair.

And finally, I tested those three edges I had given up on for this evening’s final Sunday shave before going back to school tomorrow, and got fantastic, very smooth results from each of them, one of the best shaves I've ever had from any of my edges. And more interesting, that 1^st-shave stropping afterward felt far smoother on the leather than any blades I have ever stropped! Thanks to everyone who has posted their little honing tips and tricks over the years!



Feel free to add in your own tips for when you hit the wall on problem razors!



Now if I can work up the courage, the one I have been really dreading is a W&B American Razor with severe hone/spine wear. I have had several very frustrating sessions with that beast!
Thanks-Aaron/SHD

thanks for the line up of tips. some i had never heard of before. it's still some what of a guessing game for me though i feel i am learning what to look for. What is the reason behind the dish soap?

Tintin-Dish soap or a light honing oil (on the right stone!) provides that final microscopic cushion for your most whisper- light finishing strokes, or at least that is the theory. It seems to work, or maybe it just makes those strokes glide more smoothly. One drop is plenty with a couple of squirts of water, the just spread it around with your finger. Try it and judge for yourself.

So, do you feel you have a repeatable routine, that can produce a consistent edge? If, so you are almost there.

Some suggestions, skip the soap, it is not recommended on Norton’s, just be careful, I have a divot in one of my 8k’s from a drop of soap. You want your stones to cut, not be slick, polish by using light pressure.

Too many finishers and a natural stone, are just muddying the water. Drop the C12K, you don’t need it, I doubt your, C12K is finer than 12k Naniwia.

But, if you want to use the C12K in place of a 12k, do not use slurry, plain water and polish the bevel and edge with more laps, (eliminating another variable). Smith’s honing solution works well on the C12K. You will need more laps with the C12K, than a 12K Naniwa.

When to move up and pressure. Use some pressure to set the bevel, once you have the bevel fully set with pressure, joint the edge and reset the bevel with light pressure, try to get the edge as straight as possible. At 1k it will never be very straight, but try.

Stay on the 1k until you are absolutely sure the bevel is set, use multiple test, TPT, Hair, and look at it, straight down with strong light and magnification. Failure of any test is a failure, more 1k laps.

Strop on linen or a Chrome Oxide strop, then move up to the 4k. Stay on the 4k until all the 1k stria is removed and you have an even 4k stria pattern. Use circles or pressure, to begin your 4k strokes, to remove deep 1k stria, then joint the edge and reset with light strokes on the 4k. Again, try to get the edge as straight as possible.

Once the bevels are flat, in the correct plane and meeting, they can be reset easily in about 20-30 laps.

Stay on this stone, until all the 1k stria is removed, this stone is the game changer, if the bevel is fully set. Polishing the bevel fully here, will save you a lot of time on the finishers and eliminate a lot of chipping and chance of edge failure later.

Strop on linen or Chrome and move to the 8k, using the same technique, circles or pressure to remove the 4k stria, (should go quickly) then light pressure to reset and straighten the edge. The 8k edge should be very straight. If you see chipping on the edge, joint and reset. Make sure you have a fully honed heel and toe.

Strop on Chrome Oxide, leather or both and move to the 12k. Polish out the 8k stria and get the edge super straight with light pressure laps. If you see chipping on the edge, joint and reset

Do you have to strop between stones? No.

Do you have to remove all the stria from the bevel? No.

You just, have to remove the stria, that will cause chipping at the edge, or chipping at the edge, that will cause more chipping.

How do you know which ones will cause issues?

Honing 3 razors, are not enough experience to tell, which stria or chipping will cause problems, so remove it all, or as much as you can see. Jointing will straighten the edge, then just hone to the straight edge with light pressure. Edge chipping is caused by deep stria, too much pressure or weak or hard steel. Again eliminate as many variables as possible.

If you have weak steel you have to hone past it, if possible. If the edge is chipping because of hard steel, jointing and light pressure will bring the bevels together without chips.

After 12k strop on Chrome Oxide and leather and shave.

Eliminate as many variables as possible. With more experience you can refine your technique, do so changing one variable at a time, if you see problems in your results, (the shave) back up, to what you know works.

Just take your time and work systematically, eliminate as many variables as possible. Finish on each stone with light pressure, and look at the edge with magnification.

Wow, thanks for all the advice, Euclid!! When you say "jointing the edge," I'm not sure what you mean. Is that like bread-knifing or killing the edge partly? I like how systematic your system seems to be. Maybe I need better magnification than my cheap little ebay light-scope to know for sure that I have removed all the stria from previous stones before moving up. Thanks again-I still have much to learn!

Jointing, is lightly running the edge against the corner of the stone. I use the upper right hand vertical corner, I am right handed. Just lightly slide it from heel to toe. If you are careful you will feel if you have a chip.

Jointing will remove any burrs on the edge, that may have formed using a low grit stone or too much pressure, or very small micro-chips. Stropping does the same thing without dulling the edge. Jointing is more aggressive.

It makes your edge straight, (like jointing a board) it does dull the edge, but as I said, once the bevels are flat and in the correct plane, they will be re-ground to meeting very easily, just a few laps.

There is a post I made about this theory, a while back, “Hone a straight edge or to a straight edge?”

Yes, more or better magnification is always better, I use the Carson, Micro Max 200 10-15 bucks and or the 60X lighted loupe about 2-3dollrs. You need to be able to see the stria clearly, I think 60x is best for that, the 100x on the Micro Max is better for detail and looking at problems, chips.

Both are quick to use once you get the hand of it, I put a piece of foam on the Carson to protect the edge, there is a post on it in the Workshop forum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

So, do you feel you have a repeatable routine, that can produce a consistent edge? If, so you are almost there.

Some suggestions, skip the soap, it is not recommended on Norton’s, just be careful, I have a divot in one of my 8k’s from a drop of soap. You want your stones to cut, not be slick, polish by using light pressure.

Too many finishers and a natural stone, are just muddying the water. Drop the C12K, you don’t need it, I doubt your, C12K is finer than 12k Naniwia.

But, if you want to use the C12K in place of a 12k, do not use slurry, plain water and polish the bevel and edge with more laps, (eliminating another variable). Smith’s honing solution works well on the C12K. You will need more laps with the C12K, than a 12K Naniwa.

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Interesting, I wasn't aware that soap could harm synthetics. I've never had an inclination to try that on anything other than barber hones and naturals, I'll make a note to keep it that way.

I agree with Euclid on the PHIG vs the Naniwa. My PHIG is a slight improvement over a Norton 8K, but I'm certain that it isn't actually as fine as a 12K synthetic like a Naniwa. So honing on the PHIG, then jumping UP to the Naniwa, and finally back down to the PHIG seems a little counterproductive to me. I would choose one or the other and be happy. However, if you find you simply like the edge better if you soften the Naniwa 12k edge with a natural, I would skip using the PHIG as a bridge stone and go straight to the Naniwa off the 8K then soften edge with the PHIG using a little soap and save yourself a few (hundred) strokes.

When I use my PHIG, I make a barely visible slurry and do a set of 50-ish strokes to bridge between it and the Norton 8k. I'm aware this is actually working slightly backwards, but I like the final results. Then I'll do a set or 2 with pure water, and finish with a set on shave lather.

Thanks for your insights too, Marshall-I should probably keep the Dawn off of my synthetic water-hones per Euclid's experience! And I hear what you're saying about the PHIG being probably a step backward from the finer, more reliable Nani 12. I guess I was looking for a level of smooth that I hadn't gotten from the 3 blades in question, all of which had given me some rough shaves in the past.

As I often say, there are many roads to sharp, and I don't have nearly enough experience yet to have a "system" totally down cold, again just some "tricks" to help with problem edges. In any event, I am slowly getting better with the idiosyncrasies of each particular blade and the diagnostic tests at each step. My other, easier blades haven't needed all this tinkering, but it's nice to discover some more tools for the toolbox and run them past the experts.

The problem is that HAD has struck. Now I "need" a Chosera 1k bevel-setter and a moderately-priced thuringian (yeah, an oxymoron I know). And if I win the lottery, a Gokumyo 20k would be awesome. I honed on those 3 stones at an Asheville, NC meetup a couple of years ago and loved the resulting edges!

Torque is really important and not often talked about, once I got that worked out I consistently got better edges. I also always get great edges from my PHIG followed by a CrOx paddle

Well, I'm hardly an expert. But most of what I've learned comes from people here that fit that description.

There's definitely something to be said for how smooth a natural edge can be. I think there's a reason that so many here will actually work on synthetics up to a Naniwa 12, then move over to a Thuringian, Arkansas, Coticule, and even the PHIG. I don't know how or why, but many find it more comfortable and smoother, even if it isn't as keen.

I feel you on the HAD. I've got so many rocks it isn't funny, and I'd love to add a Thuringian or a Coticule to the lineup. BUT for the here and now I'm sort of in the same place you're in. I've been really focusing on the Norton 1/4/8 to keep things as simple as possible, and get a reliable repeatable system down. I think it may be safe to add finishers in, but I'm still playing by the self imposed rules. One razor, Norton 1/4/8, clean linen and leather only. No pastes, no finer finishers, just the basics - though I did bend the rules a bit and refresh the edge with a barber hone last shave. May be time to give the blade a 4/8 touch up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

So, do you feel you have a repeatable routine, that can produce a consistent edge? If, so you are almost there.

Some suggestions, skip the soap, it is not recommended on Norton’s, just be careful, I have a divot in one of my 8k’s from a drop of soap. You want your stones to cut, not be slick, polish by using light pressure.

...

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Euclid,

I've heard in other discussions some people put shaving lather on the hone. Do you think this could also damage some synthetic stones?

I have a stain on my Norton 8k which I suspect came from hand soap, but thankfully it's only discolouration, and it's still flat...

Some ideas from a few years ago that might help :)

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...bing-over.html

Thanks, Glenn-That is exactly the thread I remember picking up some of those tips from, and I'm going to reread it now. Aaron

"I've heard in other discussions some people put shaving lather on the hone. Do you think this could also damage some synthetic stones?"

I don’t know, something in the soap caused a reaction with the binder , I had put a drop of liquid dish soap on a wet stone and it began to fizz, I rinsed off the stone and it had eaten a small divot in the stone.

Fortunately, it does not affect the performance of the stone. This happened years ago and I continued to use the stone for many years after. I now use a different 8K stone, for other reasons.

If you were going to try soap on a synthetic stone, I would do so on the side of the stone where it will do no damage.

But really, you don’t need soap on a synthetic, I don’t even slurry synthetics, there is no need. I want my synthetics to cut and if I need more polish I move up in grit. I only use plain water on synthetic stones and Smith’s and water on naturals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

But really, you don’t need soap on a synthetic, I don’t even slurry synthetics, there is no need. I want my synthetics to cut and if I need more polish I move up in grit. I only use plain water on synthetic stones...

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I'll second that. I see no need to slurry up a synthetic, they're fast enough as is. After the bevel is set at 1K the 4 and 8 just fly by so fast you'd end up slowing yourself down with slurry. Same for soap really, even at the finishing stage. I could be wrong, but I just don't think it would benefit on my Norton 8K for example. The one exception to this is barber hones because it is 'true to form' so to speak.

The only synthetic hone I slurry is my King Ice Bear 1200 which is slow, it speeds it up 10 fold and sets a bevel FAST.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marshal

I'll second that. I see no need to slurry up a synthetic, they're fast enough as is. After the bevel is set at 1K the 4 and 8 just fly by so fast you'd end up slowing yourself down with slurry. Same for soap really, even at the finishing stage. I could be wrong, but I just don't think it would benefit on my Norton 8K for example. The one exception to this is barber hones because it is 'true to form' so to speak.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by rodb

The only synthetic hone I slurry is my King Ice Bear 1200 which is slow, it speeds it up 10 fold and sets a bevel FAST.

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IMO stones on the lower end are sort of the exception to the rule. When most of us bring out our 1Ks it's usually to set a bevel or repair a ding, and I could see creating a slurry on just about any 1K stone to speed up the process, though I've yet to try it myself.

Whatever work for you.

The nice thing about this hobby, is there are no rules, find a method that works for you and perfect it, the goal is to shave.

I know guys that have all kinds of wacky methods, that work very well, I have shaved off of some of those edges and they are keen and comfortable. Slurry, no slurry, tape no tape, paste, no paste… it does not matter.

As Lynn says…Have Fun…