Inefficient hair removal after honing

I got a razor that I had honed (set and went through progression) a year or so ago and it worked brilliantly. A couple of months ago I did a touch up on it, and it didn't seem so good after that, not as smooth. I couldn't remember how much tape I'd used when I'd originally set it, and perhaps that was the issue with the touch up I thought.

So today I reset it and went through a progression, and it seemed good with arm hair test and under the loupe and all, but when I went to shave with it it just didn't seem to efficiently remove hair. I had to finish up with a different razor.

What would be best way of diagnosing/correcting the problem with this one? The one thing I did do today was add a bit of extra tape in the middle as the first time I'd honed it the bevel was a bit wide in the middle and I thought I'd even it out. That seemed to work, but, again, as I said, not shaving as it should.

Is it best just to try to reset it? What sort of things should I look out for?

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So you used a loupe. Do the bevels go all the way to the edge along the entire length of the blade on both sides? You need to at least come very close to the same taping arrangement you did during the original bevel set if you want to get by with just a touch-up.

If you are not able to replicate that, then you likely will need to do a new bevel set and this time write down how you taped it. Since you said that you today re-set the bevels and that it does not shave adequately, then the odds are good that you did not fully set the bevels. You might as well start over again.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

So you used a loupe. Do the bevels go all the way to the edge along the entire length of the blade on both sides? You need to at least come very close to the same taping arrangement you did during the original bevel set if you want to get by with just a touch-up.

If you are not able to replicate that, then you likely will need to do a new bevel set and this time write down how you taped it. Since you said that you today re-set the bevels and that it does not shave adequately, then the odds are good that you did not fully set the bevels. You might as well start over again.

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I'll have to have another look at the bevels and make sure. Yeah, I assume I mucked it up when I retouched it. This was one of the first ones I'd honed, and I didn't have many razors back then so I didn't think to write down the tape at the time. I've started keeping notes now though.

So it's most likely a problem at the bevel level then, yeah? I'll try it again - I'd like to get this one back in the rotation, it was a brilliant shaver.

You could also use a felt marker pen on the bevels to help you see what is going on.

Bob

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Originally Posted by benhunt

So it's most likely a problem at the bevel level then, yeah? I'll try it again - I'd like to get this one back in the rotation, it was a brilliant shaver.

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:roflmao

If you do much reading in this section, you will find that it is almost always the bevel. You can shave with a razor that has been properly honed on just a 1k. If the bevels have not been set, then it won't shave well at all.

Which stones do you have?

You do not have a set bevel, not even close. You have a double/triple bevel thing going.

Put 2 layers of tape on it and set the bevel on a 1k.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Which stones do you have?

You do not have a set bevel, not even close. You have a double/triple bevel thing going.

Put 2 layers of tape on it and set the bevel on a 1k.

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I think part of the x2/x3 bevel is the original one I had set before - and I was trying to get it a bit thinner/evener this time.

I had originally set it on 12micron lapping film, and somehow had managed a really decent job of it, despite being one of my first.

Now I have a Chosera 1k, which is what I used today. This time I used 3 layers of tape and a couple addition bits of tape in the middle to try to get the bevel evener.

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Originally Posted by BobH

You could also use a felt marker pen on the bevels to help you see what is going on.

Bob

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I used to do that - I'll try it again.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

:roflmao

If you do much reading in this section, you will find that it is almost always the bevel. You can shave with a razor that has been properly honed on just a 1k. If the bevels have not been set, then it won't shave well at all.

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Yeah, that was my guess - I just wanted to make sure the problem wasn't at some intermediate polishing stage.

Do you have any other razor that needs to be honed? I ask because it may be enlightening for you to shave off of a 1k edge. I consider it to be an excellent learning experience for beginners to try and you may be surprised to find how little the upper stones contribute to the shave relative to the 1k, or whatever you have for setting the bevels.

From the picture, the spine doesn't seem to worn, I would start with two layers of tape and skip the extra bits and read up on rolling x-stroke. Use the 1k until it cuts hair easily at skin level then move up

Felt marker is a must. It will help you get your tape quantities spot on.

I would do a thumb pad and arm hair test after each stone apart from the final stone.

Also,.... Never give up...fight... *face slap*
Good luck to you :)

"I think part of the x2/x3 bevel is the original one I had set before - and I was trying to get it a bit thinner/evener this time."

So, why do you want a thinner bevel? The bevel is so thin now, at the toe, it almost looks like it does not reach the toe.

The problem with 3 layers of tape is, it has to be on tight or it will get squishy and then you get the irregular bevel you have. And you have to replace it often, as soon as it gets squishy.

Try 2 layers with an inked bevel and see where it hits the stone. You should be fine.

Use some pressure and cut an even, single flat bevel from heel to toe and from the edge to the back of the bevel, or you will never be able to replicate the bevel in the higher grit stones. The bevel will never get polished and the edge straight.

“This time I used 3 layers of tape and a couple addition bits of tape in the middle to try to get the bevel evener.”

Don’t worry about the width of the bevel, all you should care about is the edge. You can control some excessive width by controlling your pressure.

You probably have so much tape on the spine it is causing an uneven grind on the bevel, because it is not sitting on the stone the same with each lap.

Perfectly even bevels are a knife sharpening thing, it is not how you Hone a razor. Sometimes you have no control of the bevel, because of the warp of the blade or the thickness of the spine.

You also might want to clean the tarnish off your razor. Every time you strop that razor on your good leather strop, you are imbedding it, with the oxidation and rust, which is very abrasive, you are making an abrasive strop of unknown grit.

000 steel wool and wd40. It will leave some tarnish, if you want the look, steel wool and metal polish will remove the tarnish if you want more of a polished look. Either way remove the tarnish and active rust, before you hone.

I'm learning here, so I'm going to throw this question. Wouldn't be better to bypass the whole tape thing and just work on it from scratch?

What do you mean?

Honing or restoration?

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

What do you mean?

Honing or restoration?

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In his case honing correct?

Yes, he needs to set a whole new bevel.

It sounds like, he is trying to make an even bevel, which sometimes for razors you have no control over, if you want a shaving edge.

The OP needs to cut a new bevel, and set it fully. It is a common misconception for honers new to razors, it is a 100 year plus, old razor that can be made to shave well, but the bevel may not be pretty.

There is very little spine wear, so the razor is likely, warped, twisted, the spine of uneven thickness, or all three.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Do you have any other razor that needs to be honed? I ask because it may be enlightening for you to shave off of a 1k edge. I consider it to be an excellent learning experience for beginners to try and you may be surprised to find how little the upper stones contribute to the shave relative to the 1k, or whatever you have for setting the bevels.

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Yes, heaps. Yeah I'll try setting another one on 1k at some point and just shaving directly.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

I" think part of the x2/x3 bevel is the original one I had set before - and I was trying to get it a bit thinner/evener this time."

So, why do you want a thinner bevel? The bevel is so thin now, at the toe, it almost looks like it does not reach the toe.

The problem with 3 layers of tape is, it has to be on tight or it will get squishy and then you get the irregular bevel you have. And you have to replace it often, as soon as it gets squishy.

Try 2 layers with an inked bevel and see where it hits the stone. You should be fine.

Use some pressure and cut an even, single flat bevel from heel to toe and from the edge to the back of the bevel, or you will never be able to replicate the bevel in the higher grit stones. The bevel will never get polished and the edge straight.

“This time I used 3 layers of tape and a couple addition bits of tape in the middle to try to get the bevel evener.”

Don’t worry about the width of the bevel, all you should care about is the edge. You can control some excessive width by controlling your pressure.

You probably have so much tape on the spine it is causing an uneven grind on the bevel, because it is not sitting on the stone the same with each lap.

Perfectly even bevels are a knife sharpening thing, it is not how you Hone a razor. Sometimes you have no control of the bevel, because of the warp of the blade or the thickness of the spine.

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Ok - in my beginning days, I had just done it that way, not worrying about the profile of the bevel as such. I had been lead to believe, since then, it was better to have an even bevel. The thin bevel you see now is my last attempt - you can see the first bevel is not very thin.

When you say control width of bevel with pressure, so in this case, more pressure on the heel and toe bits and less in the middle?

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You also might want to clean the tarnish off your razor. Every time you strop that razor on your good leather strop, you are imbedding it, with the oxidation and rust, which is very abrasive, you are making an abrasive strop of unknown grit.

000 steel wool and wd40. It will leave some tarnish, if you want the look, steel wool and metal polish will remove the tarnish if you want more of a polished look. Either way remove the tarnish and active rust, before you hone.

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I had originally cleaned off the active rust but left the tarnish. You think it would still be worthwhile to remove a bit more tarnish?

Not going to fix-your issue but as mentioned, I was at Glen's a month or so ago with Roy, and it was told to me that it was time I try the 1k shave test, i did it when I got back, and after I finally got a true bevel set. I shaved, I think it will show you that it truly is all about the bevel.

Remember I sad after I Finally got a bevel set, case. Had a few terrible shaves from what I thought was a bevel that was correct, but when the light bulb went n. I got the bevel right, I shaved with it, then. Shaved after each stone in the progression, I really learned a bunch about pressures and when it's time to move on. Back on topic now. Tc

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Originally Posted by tcrideshd

Not going to fix-your issue but as mentioned, I was at Glen's a month or so ago with Roy, and it was told to me that it was time I try the 1k shave test, i did it when I got back, and after I finally got a true bevel set. I shaved, I think it will show you that it truly is all about the bevel.

Remember I sad after I Finally got a bevel set, case. Had a few terrible shaves from what I thought was a bevel that was correct, but when the light bulb went n. I got the bevel right, I shaved with it, then. Shaved after each stone in the progression, I really learned a bunch about pressures and when it's time to move on. Back on topic now. Tc

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When you shaved after each stone in the progression - how exactly did you do this? Did you just shave a tiny bit after each stone?

I,m an everyday shaver so I just shaved the next day after going to the next stone, I actually shaved twice on the 8k day and hit the 12k and shaved that night,, I get a pretty good beard by the end of the day And it has to be smooth or it will burn, But that's how I did it. Tc

So, to hone a smiling razor, there are 2 easy methods.

Use a Heel forward, Rolling X stroke, where you vary the pressure by lightly torqueing the edge, onto the stone and slightly lifting the heel, as you travel down and across the stone, especially when bevel setting. Ink will help here, visualizing where you are making contact on the bevel.

Or you can hone the razor, in 3 parts, straight hone the toe, middle and heel separately, then blend the 3 facets with an X stroke.

Either way you can vary the pressure, to even up the bevel width to a degree.

The smile on your razor, is not that pronounced, but you will have to do some gymnastics and modify pressure, to get the heel and toe honed. Because of the multiple bevels, ink will help you see where you are making contact and honing to the edge.

The Chosera will easily cut a new bevel. This is a repair, not your garden variety honing at this point.

In this case, even though you are setting a bevel, it is more repair work, where you will be using more pressure, than usual, to cut a new bevel. Once you cut a new, single, flat bevel, you will probably have a chippy edge, joint the edge and reset the whole edge with light pressure.

A lot will depend on the condition of the razor.

You could do that I would think, once the bevel is set after the 1k I can usually finish honing in 10 mins or less. So test the 1k, in my case 3 mins on the 4k and test, 3 mins on the 8k and test, 3 mins on the finisher and test. If I'm honing for others I just test on my toughest spots, if it passes there it will pass the rest of my face.

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Originally Posted by benhunt

When you shaved after each stone in the progression - how exactly did you do this? Did you just shave a tiny bit after each stone?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

So, to hone a smiling razor, there are 2 easy methods.

Use a Heel forward, Rolling X stroke, where you vary the pressure by lightly torqueing the edge, onto the stone and slightly lifting the heel, as you travel down and across the stone, especially when bevel setting. Ink will help here, visualizing where you are making contact on the bevel.

Or you can hone the razor, in 3 parts, straight hone the toe, middle and heel separately, then blend the 3 facets with an X stroke.

Either way you can vary the pressure, to even up the bevel width to a degree.

The smile on your razor, is not that pronounced, but you will have to do some gymnastics and modify pressure, to get the heel and toe honed. Because of the multiple bevels, ink will help you see where you are making contact and honing to the edge.

The Chosera will easily cut a new bevel. This is a repair, not your garden variety honing at this point.

In this case, even though you are setting a bevel, it is more repair work, where you will be using more pressure, than usual, to cut a new bevel. Once you cut a new, single, flat bevel, you will probably have a chippy edge, joint the edge and reset the whole edge with light pressure.

A lot will depend on the condition of the razor.

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Cheers - that's all very clear and helpful. The only bit I'm still a bit vague on is joining the edge. Is there a video of someone doing this somewhere?

Here is a good post, that is basically on jointing and honing to an already straight edge. Hone a Straight Edge or to a Straight Edge?

The thread does get a bit side tracked about the interpretation of Iwasaki’s method, but there is still a lot of good discussion.

In that thread on post 33 there is a link to Alex Gilmore’s video of honing a razor. At about 6.25, Alex joints the razor using his interpretation of the Iwasaki method.

I believe in some of Glenn’s videos, he also demonstrates the technique as I describe below.

I typically just very lightly draw the razor from heel to toe across the upper vertical corner of the stone one time. It removes any false edge and straightens the edge. The bevels will no longer be meeting, but will come back to meeting in 6-10 light laps.

Alex says the technique is similar to killing an edge on a glass, but I feel a stone cuts a fresh edge, where a glass rolls the edge and it eventually breaks off.

Make sure to watch part 2, post 35, of Alex’s method.

BTW, Alex has many great videos of honing and his AX Method at his site, the Japan Stone.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

The thread does get a bit side tracked about the interpretation of Iwasaki’s method, but there is still a lot of good discussion.

In that thread on post 33 there is a link to Alex Gilmore’s video of honing a razor. At about 6.25, Alex joints the razor using his interpretation of the Iwasaki method.

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I side-tracked that thread because I saw no point in allowing the continued propagation of what I consider to be a completely wrong interpretation. I will continue to maintain that this interpretation cannot be correct, for the same two reasons.

1. Iwasaki described this as the last step of honing. He did not say it was to prepare for the final step. He said that it was the final step. I do not believe that jointing the edge is the last honing step.

2. Iwasaki stated that this final honing step was to be done for 10-15 minutes. I do not believe that jointing the edge should, by any stretch of the imagination, be done for 10-15 minutes.

Alex's video stated that after a single back and forth stroke, the edge was dulled. It is obvious that this stroke should not be the last honing step and should not be done for 10 minutes, so it also is obvious that this is not what Iwasaki was describing.

“I side-tracked that thread because I saw no point in allowing the continued propagation of what I consider to be a completely wrong interpretation.”

Wow, you really are full of yourself, that was over a year and a half, ago…

I did not know you could channel Iwasaki. I suppose, that jewel was based on your translation of the original, Japanese?

Dude, you really need to eat more fiber… or something.

More importantly, your post, has nothing to do with the OP’s question.

Again, you are not being helpful, but, you certainly are living up to your reputation.

:popcorn::popcorn:

2 bagger

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

“I side-tracked that thread because I saw no point in allowing the continued propagation of what I consider to be a completely wrong interpretation.”

Wow, you really are full of yourself, that was over a year and a half, ago…

I did not know you could channel Iwasaki. I suppose, that jewel was based on your translation of the original, Japanese?

Dude, you really need to eat more fiber… or something.

More importantly, your post, has nothing to do with the OP’s question.

Again, you are not being helpful, but, you certainly are living up to your reputation.

---

"eat more fiber"...Marty you're killing me. I just about spit my milk all over the computer!
I'm still laughing!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

“I side-tracked that thread because I saw no point in allowing the continued propagation of what I consider to be a completely wrong interpretation.”

Wow, you really are full of yourself, that was over a year and a half, ago…

I did not know you could channel Iwasaki. I suppose, that jewel was based on your translation of the original, Japanese?

Dude, you really need to eat more fiber… or something.

More importantly, your post, has nothing to do with the OP’s question.

Again, you are not being helpful, but, you certainly are living up to your reputation.

---

HAHA :rofl2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

“I side-tracked that thread because I saw no point in allowing the continued propagation of what I consider to be a completely wrong interpretation.”

Wow, you really are full of yourself, that was over a year and a half, ago…

I did not know you could channel Iwasaki. I suppose, that jewel was based on your translation of the original, Japanese?

Dude, you really need to eat more fiber… or something.

More importantly, your post, has nothing to do with the OP’s question.

Again, you are not being helpful, but, you certainly are living up to your reputation.

---

You linked to the old thread. I did not. You once again have been rude. I was not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

So, to hone a smiling razor, there are 2 easy methods.

Use a Heel forward, Rolling X stroke, where you vary the pressure by lightly torqueing the edge, onto the stone and slightly lifting the heel, as you travel down and across the stone, especially when bevel setting. Ink will help here, visualizing where you are making contact on the bevel.

Or you can hone the razor, in 3 parts, straight hone the toe, middle and heel separately, then blend the 3 facets with an X stroke.

Either way you can vary the pressure, to even up the bevel width to a degree.

The smile on your razor, is not that pronounced, but you will have to do some gymnastics and modify pressure, to get the heel and toe honed. Because of the multiple bevels, ink will help you see where you are making contact and honing to the edge.

The Chosera will easily cut a new bevel. This is a repair, not your garden variety honing at this point.

In this case, even though you are setting a bevel, it is more repair work, where you will be using more pressure, than usual, to cut a new bevel. Once you cut a new, single, flat bevel, you will probably have a chippy edge, joint the edge and reset the whole edge with light pressure.

A lot will depend on the condition of the razor.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Here is a good post, that is basically on jointing and honing to an already straight edge. Hone a Straight Edge or to a Straight Edge?

The thread does get a bit side tracked about the interpretation of Iwasaki’s method, but there is still a lot of good discussion.

In that thread on post 33 there is a link to Alex Gilmore’s video of honing a razor. At about 6.25, Alex joints the razor using his interpretation of the Iwasaki method.

I believe in some of Glenn’s videos, he also demonstrates the technique as I describe below.

I typically just very lightly draw the razor from heel to toe across the upper vertical corner of the stone one time. It removes any false edge and straightens the edge. The bevels will no longer be meeting, but will come back to meeting in 6-10 light laps.

Alex says the technique is similar to killing an edge on a glass, but I feel a stone cuts a fresh edge, where a glass rolls the edge and it eventually breaks off.

Make sure to watch part 2, post 35, of Alex’s method.

BTW, Alex has many great videos of honing and his AX Method at his site, the Japan Stone.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I side-tracked that thread because I saw no point in allowing the continued propagation of what I consider to be a completely wrong interpretation. I will continue to maintain that this interpretation cannot be correct, for the same two reasons.

1. Iwasaki described this as the last step of honing. He did not say it was to prepare for the final step. He said that it was the final step. I do not believe that jointing the edge is the last honing step.

2. Iwasaki stated that this final honing step was to be done for 10-15 minutes. I do not believe that jointing the edge should, by any stretch of the imagination, be done for 10-15 minutes.

Alex's video stated that after a single back and forth stroke, the edge was dulled. It is obvious that this stroke should not be the last honing step and should not be done for 10 minutes, so it also is obvious that this is not what Iwasaki was describing.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

“I side-tracked that thread because I saw no point in allowing the continued propagation of what I consider to be a completely wrong interpretation.”

Wow, you really are full of yourself, that was over a year and a half, ago…

I did not know you could channel Iwasaki. I suppose, that jewel was based on your translation of the original, Japanese?

Dude, you really need to eat more fiber… or something.

More importantly, your post, has nothing to do with the OP’s question.

Again, you are not being helpful, but, you certainly are living up to your reputation.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

You linked to the old thread. I did not. You once again have been rude. I was not.

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,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO3lgO55kuY

“I'm learning here, so I'm going to throw this question. Wouldn't be better to bypass the whole tape thing and just work on it from scratch?”


The problem is not the tape, it’s just too much tape.

I recommend new honers use tape, because new honers, generally use too much pressure on low grit stones, for too long, trying to set a bevel, and needlessly grind the spine of a razor.

Tape will protect the spine from wear, even if you use too much pressure. The worst, that could happen with a taped spine, is the edge might get chippy. Jointing the edge and re-setting the bevel in a few light laps, will fix a chippy edge, once the bevels are flat.

Once a new honer masters, setting a bevel with, the right amount of pressure, then decide if you want to continue to use tape or not.

Really, there is no downside to using tape, where guys get into trouble, is if you use more than 2 layers and it starts to get squishy, the bevel gets uneven. You can use more than 2 layers, if you keep the tape tight and fresh on the spine, but you don’t often need more than 2 layers of tape.

The hardest part of setting a bevel for most is recognizing when a bevel is fully set.

Here, is a good thread, with great micrographs, of what to look for, what a properly set bevel looks like, and more importantly, what the edge should look like. Second Try at Honing

“You linked to the old thread. I did not. You once again have been rude. I was not.”


Whew, boy, oh boy, man, you are making my point…

Most of us, that have been here for a while, are trying to help new guys, not dedicated to derailing posts, that we don’t agree with.

That, you proudly proclaim your pettiness, about single point, in a year and a half old thread, that has nothing to do with a current post, is somewhat disturbing.

Sorry, you feel my post is rude, but really, you should be ashamed. Perhaps you should take some time and reflect, on why you are here.

Now, say an act of Contrition, 2 Our Fathers and 10 Hail Mary’s. Go forth and sin no more. My son, you are forgiven…

Time to chill.