Magnification helps get a great edge

I have used magnifying glasses and microscopes to look at edges on my razors but wasn't quite sure what to look for. I've read as much as I could find on the subject and watched videos and got great information. Last weekend I took a vintage Puma that just wasn't shaving smoothly and took a picture of the edge then reset the bevel on a Naniwa traditional 1000k stone. Worked up with a 5k, 8k and 12k Naniwa superstore. Then to my 20k Suehiro. When I looked under the scope again I noticed the lines on the edge were much closer together and were very slightly angled. I then went to my Mastro Livi loom strop and did 20 laps on the chromium oxide. Again took a picture and noticed the blade looked smoother and the lines were darker. Then went to the skin side and did 30 laps. The lines seemed slightly duller. I felt the edge each time I looked under the scope and it really stuck to my thumb now. Cut arm hair half way up with no problem, really popped. The shave was amazing. Really smooth, with no irritation. I am going to take another vintage razor and try to finish with my Escher and Ark Black. Feels great to see an edge like the ones I see from people like Lynn, Alfredo, Mastro Livi and others who really turn out great edges.

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Originally Posted by jkatzman

I have used magnifying glasses and microscopes to look at edges on my razors but wasn't quite sure what to look for. I've read as much as I could find on the subject and watched videos and got great information. Last weekend I took a vintage Puma that just wasn't shaving smoothly and took a picture of the edge then reset the bevel on a Naniwa traditional 1000k stone. Worked up with a 5k, 8k and 12k Naniwa superstore. Then to my 20k Suehiro. When I looked under the scope again I noticed the lines on the edge were much closer together and were very slightly angled. I then went to my Mastro Livi loom strop and did 20 laps on the chromium oxide. Again took a picture and noticed the blade looked smoother and the lines were darker. Then went to the skin side and did 30 laps. The lines seemed slightly duller. I felt the edge each time I looked under the scope and it really stuck to my thumb now. Cut arm hair half way up with no problem, really popped. The shave was amazing. Really smooth, with no irritation. I am going to take another vintage razor and try to finish with my Escher and Ark Black. Feels great to see an edge like the ones I see from people like Lynn, Alfredo, Mastro Livi and others who really turn out great edges.

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Good job getting the edge you were looking for, but loupes, microscopes, and other magnification devices... you can see a lot of fascinating stuff with them but they are not needed at all for a good edge or a shave.
Your eyes are more than enough to see if the edge has been overhoned, underhoned, has a ding, or pretty much any problem you have with your edge.
The "secret" by using your eyes only is, find the correct angle for the edge with a good light source, and see the reflection of the razor's edge. It won't reveal the "grit" but you will see any and every spot that is not honed, overhoned, has a nick, uneven honing because of the contrast between the two stones used or places on the edge that aren't honed next to the ones that are and pretty much any inconsistencies, that reveal in all cases if you need to go a step back to the previous hone, or it's fine to proceed.
The tests from this library, Sharpness tests explained - Straight Razor Place Library are all useful, but for my case YMMV, the only test I use, and quite often on restorations is, I try to shave tiny spots of arm hair after the 1k stone, after the 1k stone the edge must shave (not overdoing it, the few, at least for me, hair from the inside of the arm are more than enough, cut the bare minimum of hair testing the whole edge, in the end I have my results and you can't spot any missing hair or bald patches), as long as the whole edge has the same appearance i.e. no darker or shiner parts on the edge, a uniform finish.
If you can do that, the bevel is set correctly, that's the 90+% of the job; you can proceed to the next, finer stones on which you'll only have to remove the scratches from previous stones, no need to overdo it there either. Then, strop and shave.
I love looking images of edges finished on different stones, and I understand the interest quite a few people have taken on this, but in the end, it's the razor, the stone, the strop and your hand that achieve the edge, not an image.
Experience can't be bought; get reliable stones, razors, and hone until you get the edges you are looking for.

Of course, I'm not judging anyone and as I mentioned already I enjoy seeing these images, but magnification is not the answer of the perfect shave.

Being 70, my eyes are nowhere as good, even with glasses, as they were say 10 years ago. I wanted to be able to see if the edge was even and if there were any nicks etc I couldn't see. I also use the running the blade over my thumb nail to feel if there are any problems with the edge. I find that by tracking the edge under magnification through the honing process, I can check to see the best technique. I find the vintage and new models sometime need different or work better with certain stones and strokes. When I find a razor that shaves smooth and sharp, I like to see how it looks under the glass. I also do that when I get a professionally honed razor and try to duplicate the edge when I hone it. The journey to perfection can be long and sometimes painful. Bottom line, if it shaves great you did good.

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Originally Posted by jkatzman

Being 70, my eyes are nowhere as good, even with glasses, as they were say 10 years ago. I wanted to be able to see if the edge was even and if there were any nicks etc I couldn't see. I also use the running the blade over my thumb nail to feel if there are any problems with the edge. I find that by tracking the edge under magnification through the honing process, I can check to see the best technique. I find the vintage and new models sometime need different or work better with certain stones and strokes. When I find a razor that shaves smooth and sharp, I like to see how it looks under the glass. I also do that when I get a professionally honed razor and try to duplicate the edge when I hone it. The journey to perfection can be long and sometimes painful. Bottom line, if it shaves great you did good.

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I'm sorry about the comment with the eyes, I wasn't referring to a single individual but the general idea that microscopes are a "must have" for the honing arsenal, but to anyone who read my comment. Of course, there are cases where are needed, in any case, if you found my comment offensive, I apologize.

Even if I had perfect vision I doubt I could see micro chipping,scratch pattern or over honing. A microscope isn't necessary but some form of magnification probably is. I read online somewhere from a 19th century honing guide that mentioned using magnification to examine the edge.

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Originally Posted by rodb

Even if I had perfect vision I doubt I could see micro chipping,scratch pattern or over honing. A microscope isn't necessary but some form of magnification probably is. I read online somewhere from a 19th century honing guide that mentioned using magnification to examine the edge.

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I've never had an issue with micro-chipping.
Overhoning too, on coarse stones, you'll see it. On finer, it doesn't happen, or you want it to happen when it does; the dark age where whenever there was a problem with your edge, it was most definitely overhoning and absolutely nothing else with most of us panicking is behind us (like until 8 years ago :p).
As for scratch pattern, there is the hazy 1k and more mirror-like from finer stones; if it looks like it's been honed on a coarse stone, go to your bevel setter. If finer, try a "touch-up" on the bevel setter or go to the next stone. Slurry can also be handy regardless of the stone.
A 19th century honing guide mentioned the use of magnification to examine the edge, but 4000-5000 years ago Egyptians were shaving with edges out of metal, and there have been found Thuringians, the real ones, that were used as hones from as back as 2000 years ago, and these were just samples, the use of the hone should be even older.
People were doing what we are doing for millennia and will continue to do so; unless there is a real reason, or just curiosity, a magnifying tool is not necessary.

The point, Vasilis makes is a good one, make sure the bevel is completely set first, simply by looking at it, (look straight down on the edge). All other test, cannot tell you if the edge is completely set.

Sounds like in your case, the bevel was set, and you are looking at the bevels, as the progression is polished and the edge is straightened, as the bevel stria gets finer. But if the edge is not fully set, (a common issue with new honers) you are trying to polish an edge, that does not exist.

Take your magnification and look straight down on the edge, before you set the bevel then after, if you see any shiny reflections, that is where the bevels are not meeting, (even micro-chips) will show up.

Also, be careful with the TNT, (thumb nail test) it can easily chip the edge. If you use it, do a few polishing strokes to re-set the edge.

You will learn a lot by studying bevels and edges from natural stones, but the bevel finish from a SG20, a Thüringen and a Hard Ark will produce very different looking bevels and shaving edges. Which demonstrate the argument, that you don’t need a perfect looking shiny, bevel to get a great shave.

Warning, you are circling the abyss. But you are not alone…

Overhoning - i love it .

I have a 60 x magnification scope , but it is very time consuming and it is a deep hole Ive learned to test the edges by feel .
Ofcoarse a 10 or 30 x loupe is very good for eye check on the blade h a ha ha ha a

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Originally Posted by Vasilis

I've never had an issue with micro-chipping.
Overhoning too, on coarse stones, you'll see it. On finer, it doesn't happen, or you want it to happen when it does; the dark age where whenever there was a problem with your edge, it was most definitely overhoning and absolutely nothing else with most of us panicking is behind us (like until 8 years ago :p).
As for scratch pattern, there is the hazy 1k and more mirror-like from finer stones; if it looks like it's been honed on a coarse stone, go to your bevel setter. If finer, try a "touch-up" on the bevel setter or go to the next stone. Slurry can also be handy regardless of the stone.
A 19th century honing guide mentioned the use of magnification to examine the edge, but 4000-5000 years ago Egyptians were shaving with edges out of metal, and there have been found Thuringians, the real ones, that were used as hones from as back as 2000 years ago, and these were just samples, the use of the hone should be even older.
People were doing what we are doing for millennia and will continue to do so; unless there is a real reason, or just curiosity, a magnifying tool is not necessary.

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Not to muddy the waters, but ancient Mesopotamians and ancient Romans were using polished quartz as magnifying glasses.

I find a 10x achromat triplet to be useful in checking the bevel (reflected light) and edge (silhouette). Higher than that in magnification, I may be seeing micro-chips that are not necessarily detrimental to the shaving process.

You have to be careful with magnification. Certain lighting angles, especially from multiple light sources, can produce a halo type of effect on the edge that will make it look like the bevel doesn't meet when it actually does.

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Originally Posted by JSmith1983

You have to be careful with magnification. Certain lighting angles, especially from multiple light sources, can produce a halo type of effect on the edge that will make it look like the bevel doesn't meet when it actually does.

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Hence the use of an achromat.

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Originally Posted by JSmith1983

You have to be careful with magnification. Certain lighting angles, especially from multiple light sources, can produce a halo type of effect on the edge that will make it look like the bevel doesn't meet when it actually does.

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Not if you look straight down on the edge, from the side, yes, because we can’t see the actual edge with 100X, or even 400X.

Just look straight down on it, usually you don’t even need magnification, just a strong light.

Any, reflection is where the bevels are not meeting. Then look from the side to see why.

Is it really important to remove all the Stria from the previous hone?

I use 1k then jnats.
By the end I still have some 1k Stria here n there but my edges don't suffer from that..

Maybe I'm missing the obvious, school me gents please :)

No, just the stria that will affect the edge…

Which are those, you ask?

Yea, until you can figure that out, just remove all the previous stria, especially, deep bevel setting stria.

The goal is to make the edge as straight as possible with each stone in the progression, so that you edge is as straight as it can be and there for, keen and smooth.

If the edge does not feel smooth, you most likely have a chip or two, possibly caused by errant stria. If it shaves well, you'r good.

I like a 60 power loupe. I order three or four at a time as replacement batteries are more expensive than a new loupe.