Led flashlight shining directly down on the cutting edge?

Okay fellas, if a bright Led flashlight is shining directly down on the cutting edge apex should there be anything reflection at all?

Even thin dull light reflection?

There should be zero I mean zero light reflecting from the edge of the edge? I just need to hear a definitive answer please?

Or will there still be a faint dull line of light but no bright reflections?

On a set bevel or finished razor.

I think the reason some of my razors pulling sensation is because of the bevel not being set. I am looking for confirmation of this issue from the pros and which way is best to proceed.

Oh yes, a bright, mirror bevel should be prominent.

Attachment 246266

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Originally Posted by dshaves

There should be zero I mean zero light reflecting from the edge of the edge?

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Do you mean light reflecting from the very apex of the bevel? A chippy edge can be identified this way. Are you using magnification?

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Originally Posted by xiaotuzi

Do you mean light reflecting from the very apex of the bevel? A chippy edge can be identified this way. Are you using magnification?

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Oh! I get it! Looking straight down on the edge, it should be invisible.
If you are seeing reflections there, there is work to be done.

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Originally Posted by xiaotuzi

Do you mean light reflecting from the very apex of the bevel? A chippy edge can be identified this way. Are you using magnification?

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Yes apex reflection. The edge is not invisible there is a very, very thin reflection I can see with a bright led flashlight. Yes chips in the past have shown up as bright reflections. I can only see this under the bright led light too

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

Oh! I get it! Looking straight down on the edge, it should be invisible.
If you are seeing reflections there, there is work to be done.

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Yeah that is what I thought. The bevel bites in with the tnt and the tpt is very grabby too but with bright light I am able to see the edge...I can only see this under the bright led light too

Man, if it is a chippy edge, you may consider breadboarding the edge on a glass bottle for a few light swipes and beginning anew.
Sometimes it seems impossible to get those burrs out on the hones.
Strop it on fabric a pile and look again?

If I understand the question correctly, when the bevel is fully set and you look at it under a bright light, gently rolling the apex back and forth, there should be no white line one sparkles showing. It should reflect the shine from the side of the bevel and then nothing at the apex and then the shine of the bevel. A loupe is actually a better source for information from my experience. You can get a 60X lighted loupe for very little money.

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Originally Posted by RezDog

If I understand the question correctly, when the bevel is fully set and you look at it under a bright light, gently rolling the apex back and forth, there should be no white line one sparkles showing. It should reflect the shine from the side of the bevel and then nothing at the apex and then the shine of the bevel. A loupe is actually a better source for information from my experience. You can get a 60X lighted loupe for very little money.

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That is what I am looking for is confirmation of this issue and I do vary the blade back and forth! I have a 60p loupe with led, I have been using my phones flashlight which is super bright. Since I can see a very faint white line, it is simple in that I should just keep working on the bevel setting? I am working on 61hrc and 62hrc carbon steels, will the harder steel mean bevel setting is more of a task?

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

Man, if it is a chippy edge, you may consider breadboarding the edge on a glass bottle for a few light swipes and beginning anew.
Sometimes it seems impossible to get those burrs out on the hones.
Strop it on fabric a pile and look again?

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Sorry about that I meant I know what chippy looks like and those were older razors before I straightened them :)

I am going to presume you are working on a 1K hone. You don't have far to go by the sounds of it, it is at the point where I feel I am getting close that I start to really go light on the pressure. It will take more strokes to get the last of it done but it will also really lighten up on the depth of the stria and will make for an easier finish and be less prone to chipping, which can be an issue with hard blades. The other time that I sometimes see a white line on the apex edge of the bevel at finishing which for me means I have gone too far and the edge is about to start to fall apart, or at best will shave for a while but break down rather quickly. You are still setting the bevel though right?

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Originally Posted by RezDog

I am going to presume you are working on a 1K hone. You don't have far to go by the sounds of it, it is at the point where I feel I am getting close that I start to really go light on the pressure. It will take more strokes to get the last of it done but it will also really lighten up on the depth of the stria and will make for an easier finish and be less prone to chipping, which can be an issue with hard blades. The other time that I sometimes see a white line on the apex edge of the bevel at finishing which for me means I have gone too far and the edge is about to start to fall apart, or at best will shave for a while but break down rather quickly. You are still setting the bevel though right?

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Well, at this point I am looking at a finished edge but I saw this faint white line when the bevel was thought to be set. I am working with a Shapton glass 1k. This razor in question and another did the same thing where the edge started out great then the next shave was rough and tuggy though still very sharp at the same time. Maybe I am over doing it? What to try next?

It does take quite a bit of effort to go too far. 90% of the time the issue is typically a poor bevel set. Sometimes the poor shave is caused by the hand and not the razor. If your shave is less than you want it to be check your edge with a loupe first. I'm not always really good at it but we really should look before you leap.

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Originally Posted by RezDog

It does take quite a bit of effort to go too far. 90% of the time the issue is typically a poor bevel set. Sometimes the poor shave is caused by the hand and not the razor. If your shave is less than you want it to be check your edge with a loupe first. I'm not always really good at it but we really should look before you leap.

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I believe I have more time to spend on bevel setting. My edges look really nice under the scope, straight edge, organized stria and nicely polished but I have a consistent problem, that the blade is sharp leaving no hair behind but the sensation is not comfortable. Which to me means there is one thing in my honing that is inconsistent. I can only come to the conclusion that the bevel is not set.

I agree that that is the most likely issue. You will be amazed at what you can learn at a two day meet.

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Originally Posted by dshaves

I believe I have more time to spend on bevel setting. My edges look really nice under the scope, straight edge, organized stria and nicely polished but I have a consistent problem, that the blade is sharp leaving no hair behind but the sensation is not comfortable. Which to me means there is one thing in my honing that is inconsistent. I can only come to the conclusion that the bevel is not set.

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You may also be 'overhoning', which will leave an uncomfortable edge.
Stropping on a CroOx pasted strop will sometimes alleviate a 'toothy' edge.

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Originally Posted by RezDog

I agree that that is the most likely issue. You will be amazed at what you can learn at a two day meet.

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I will keep my focus on the bevel setting. Meeting with a pro would be awesome!

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

You may also be 'overhoning', which will leave an uncomfortable edge.
Stropping on a CroOx pasted strop will sometimes alleviate a 'toothy' edge.

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I tried CroOx crayon that I got from SRD and not only did the shave end up worse but that white reflection was more pronounced. I think I am not getting the bevel set, lack of patience I think is the problem :)

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Originally Posted by dshaves

I tried CroOx crayon that I got from SRD and not only did the shave end up worse but that white reflection was more pronounced. I think I am not getting the bevel set, lack of patience I think is the problem :)

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Yes, you must get the sides to meet! Use some circles, push down a bit on problem areas as-beginning.
We have faith you will get it there!

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

Yes, you must get the sides to meet! Use some circles, push down a bit on problem areas as-beginning.
We have faith you will get it there!

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You guys have always been so helpful! Thank you

I would suggest you go back to your bevel setter and try some different tests to figure out if your bevel is set. I personally like to use the thumbnail test. It tells me everything I need to know about my bevel. It's tough when you're starting out because you don't really know what you're feeling for. I would suggest lightly dulling the edge on a glass. Start working on resetting it and keep testing throughout the process. This will help to calibrate your bevel tests. When you think your done, keep going for a bit and see if you don't get better results. You want to get to the point where you know when you're bevel is set 100% of the time. For me this was the biggest obstacle when I was starting out. Once I was good at setting and testing my bevels, everything else kind of fell into place.

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Originally Posted by BeJay

I would suggest you go back to your bevel setter and try some different tests to figure out if your bevel is set. I personally like to use the thumbnail test. It tells me everything I need to know about my bevel. It's tough when you're starting out because you don't really know what you're feeling for. I would suggest lightly dulling the edge on a glass. Start working on resetting it and keep testing throughout the process. This will help to calibrate your bevel tests. When you think your done, keep going for a bit and see if you don't get better results. You want to get to the point where you know when you're bevel is set 100% of the time. For me this was the biggest obstacle when I was starting out. Once I was good at setting and testing my bevels, everything else kind of fell into place.

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What does the thumbnail test tell you? Any tips? Thanks

I am hoping you will strop it good on some stiff fabric and look again??

What brand is/are the razors?

Are you shaving off a 1k edge?

It does sound as if the bevels are not set, if you do TNT and do not reset the bevels you can be chipping the edge.

What is the rest of your progression?

Photos of the razors, may be helpful.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

What brand is/are the razors?

Are you shaving off a 1k edge?

It does sound as if the bevels are not set, if you do TNT and do not reset the bevels you can be chipping the edge.

What is the rest of your progression?

Photos of the razors, may be helpful.

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The razor is Hart steel, no I am not shaving off the 1k. Shapton glass 1k,4k,8k and 16k. I am really looking for advice on what to look out for when setting the bevel correctly with the tnt, tpt, etc. ?

What should one look out for in tnt test when you know for a fact the bevel is set?

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Originally Posted by dshaves

What should one look out for in tnt test when you know for a fact the bevel is set?

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When the bevel is set the bevel will feel very smooth while running across your nail. You will also feel a little resistance due to the blade slightly cutting into the nail. You will also be able to detect if a very small section is not set or damaged. There have been several times that I have found tiny defects that I had missed with magnification.

Like I said earlier. Dull the blade and do a TNT. Start resetting the bevel and keep doing TNT's throughout the process. You'll be able to feel when it starts to come in. Do some other test when you feel it coming in. Try TPT's, see if/how it shaves arm hair. Will it pop arm hairs above the skin? Once you feel some parts coming in, keep going till the TNT feels perfect from heel to toe. We could write about it all day but you'll only really get it with some experience.

After it passes you want to do another 20-25 light strokes on the 1k before moving on.

The TNT can tell you if the bevel is set, (it will cut into the nail and not slip off), but it is a destructive test. After you perform the test, the chances are very high, you will have ruined/chipped the edge. Remember, we cannot see, the real edge, even with 400X. And it cannot tell you if the whole edge is set or if you have a chip.

So, I do not use or recommend the TNT for razors.

The Thumb pad test, (TPT) can tell you, if the bevels are set, but it takes a while to learn. A TPT should feel like it sticks on the thumb, you are actually cutting into the first layer of skin. The sensation is often described as sticky.

The TPT also, will not tell you, if you have a chip and it is difficult to tell if the whole bevel is set.

Hair test are unreliable, a lot depends on your hair, and also will not tell you if you have a chip. The sample size is very small, because you are only testing one micron of the edge at a time. So it really tells you very little about the edge.

The visual test, is the only test that is not destructive, will tell you, if you have a chip or rolled edge and will tell you if you have a fully set bevel.

Look straight down, on the edge with magnification, 20-60X and under strong light, roll the razor slightly from side to side. If you see any reflection at the edge, the bevel is not fully set, or if you have a chip. Once you know what to look for, you can perform the test without magnification.

Here is a good post, honing a razor from start to finish. There are excellent photos of a fully set bevel, taken looking straight down on the edge. Second try at Honing.

At post 32, page 7, the bevel is not set. Post 42, page 9, getting closer. Post 45, page 9, almost there. Post 51, page 11, (first photo), a fully set bevel.

In this photo, you can see both bevels and the edge, a darker grey blur, no shiny reflections from end to end. If you now TPT this edge it will stick, and it will cut most hair.

Heart razors can be difficult to hone, they are hard and prone to chipping. I hone them with 2 layers of tape, some hone with 1 layer of tape, then add another layer and set a micro bevel.

In the post above, Second Try at Honing, the big issue was the honer was not using enough pressure on the 1k. With a Heart, you have to use some, (more) pressure to set the bevel, then polish the deep stria with less pressure on the 1k. Ink the bevel to make sure you have the right angle and are honing to the edge.

If the edge chips, just joint it and re-set the edge. Stay on the 1k until you have as perfect straight edge as possible. Then and only then, move up.

I have had the best edges on Harts, using lapping film.

One of the best ways to learn how the tests react is to set the SR down and pick up a DE blade

Learn the tests using a proved sharp DE blade

Try them all from the HHT to the TNT in that order hhehe

Although I do not agree that a TNT is Destructive" it is slightly dulling so you do that one last :)

Learn the tests, use all of them that you can to start with, but eventually one of those tests will become your Go-NoGo gauge the one test that you KNOW every single time tells you that the bevel is set and solid..

If you find a test that doesn't work for you on the DE you will know that it probably won't work for you on the SR, it is NOT uncommon for certain tests to not work for certain people..
Something we learned at the very first big meet ups is that trying to tell somebody that this "One" test should be good for a reliable test is that it might not work for everyone..
The DE blade will give you a standard to know what to expect with your tests..

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

One of the best ways to learn how the tests react is to set the SR down and pick up a DE blade

Learn the tests using a proved sharp DE blade

Try them all from the HHT to the TNT in that order hhehe

Although I do not agree that a TNT is Destructive" it is slightly dulling so you do that one last :)

Learn the tests, use all of them that you can to start with, but eventually one of those tests will become your Go-NoGo gauge the one test that you KNOW every single time tells you that the bevel is set and solid..

If you find a test that doesn't work for you on the DE you will know that it probably won't work for you on the SR, it is NOT uncommon for certain tests to not work for certain people..
Something we learned at the very first big meet ups is that trying to tell somebody that this "One" test should be good for a reliable test is that it might not work for everyone..
The DE blade will give you a standard to know what to expect with your tests..

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I tried using a DE blade and my SR is more keen and performs a better HHT test lol. When I tried the tnt before I pulled the blade over my wet thumbnail and it would grab/dig in so much that it was hard to continue pulling. I wasn't sure what that meant?

I will keep messing with the de blade though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

The TNT can tell you if the bevel is set, (it will cut into the nail and not slip off), but it is a destructive test. After you perform the test, the chances are very high, you will have ruined/chipped the edge. Remember, we cannot see, the real edge, even with 400X. And it cannot tell you if the whole edge is set or if you have a chip.

So, I do not use or recommend the TNT for razors.

The Thumb pad test, (TPT) can tell you, if the bevels are set, but it takes a while to learn. A TPT should feel like it sticks on the thumb, you are actually cutting into the first layer of skin. The sensation is often described as sticky.

The TPT also, will not tell you, if you have a chip and it is difficult to tell if the whole bevel is set.

Hair test are unreliable, a lot depends on your hair, and also will not tell you if you have a chip. The sample size is very small, because you are only testing one micron of the edge at a time. So it really tells you very little about the edge.

The visual test, is the only test that is not destructive, will tell you, if you have a chip or rolled edge and will tell you if you have a fully set bevel.

Look straight down, on the edge with magnification, 20-60X and under strong light, roll the razor slightly from side to side. If you see any reflection at the edge, the bevel is not fully set, or if you have a chip. Once you know what to look for, you can perform the test without magnification.

Here is a good post, honing a razor from start to finish. There are excellent photos of a fully set bevel, taken looking straight down on the edge. Second try at Honing.

At post 32, page 7, the bevel is not set. Post 42, page 9, getting closer. Post 45, page 9, almost there. Post 51, page 11, (first photo), a fully set bevel.

In this photo, you can see both bevels and the edge, a darker grey blur, no shiny reflections from end to end. If you now TPT this edge it will stick, and it will cut most hair.

Heart razors can be difficult to hone, they are hard and prone to chipping. I hone them with 2 layers of tape, some hone with 1 layer of tape, then add another layer and set a micro bevel.

In the post above, Second Try at Honing, the big issue was the honer was not using enough pressure on the 1k. With a Heart, you have to use some, (more) pressure to set the bevel, then polish the deep stria with less pressure on the 1k. Ink the bevel to make sure you have the right angle and are honing to the edge.

If the edge chips, just joint it and re-set the edge. Stay on the 1k until you have as perfect straight edge as possible. Then and only then, move up.

I have had the best edges on Harts, using lapping film.

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I have 3 stock Hart blades that I checked the LRT test and they all had a faint white line, I think I am using an Led light that is too bright for this particular test...?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

The TNT can tell you if the bevel is set, (it will cut into the nail and not slip off), but it is a destructive test. After you perform the test, the chances are very high, you will have ruined/chipped the edge. Remember, we cannot see, the real edge, even with 400X. And it cannot tell you if the whole edge is set or if you have a chip.

So, I do not use or recommend the TNT for razors.

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With all due respect to Euclid440, I completely disagree. The TNT will dull an edge, and that's why it's only used at the bevel setting stage and is always followed by a little more work on the 1k before moving on. I can also say from my own experience that it absolutely can tell you if the entire bevel is set. if there's a 1/8 section of bevel that's not set, I'll feel it. Also, as I said earlier, I often find chips in the edge that I missed under magnification. I use a 60x loupe, so I'm sure I would see much more with better magnification, but I don't see any need(for me, personally).

This just goes to show how personal these tests are and why you should try them all. You've got to figure out what works, and what doesn't work for you. The only way to figure that out is to spend time on the stones.

When performing the tnt and the blade is digging in the same way the whole length of the blade, correct me if I am wrong but that sounds like a set bevel right? If so, from what have read stay on the 1k a little more to get back the set bevel or after the tnt off of the 1k can I continue to the 4k?

You have to understand that there is some interpretation to the tests ALL tests have to be interpreted to how they fit you

For example what you wrote in the last two posts about the TNT and HHT

If that were me doing the test I would assume I had a toothy edge, that may or may not be true for you, check with your loupe and see if that is what you find..

You have to Test Check and Verify your way to being able to assess the edge, it takes practice and time and more practice and more time...

We can only give you the info as it works for us and hopefully parts of it will work for you,,, So many people mockingly say "It is just honing it ain't rocket science" they don't realize how true that actually is :p If it were rocket science we could give an exact formula that would work every time, for everyone, on every razor :D


Hone On !!!!


Ps: Now that the TNT feels good to you try the AHT and see what happens does it cut hair along the whole edge, does the TPT feel good along the whole edge, how does it look under the loupe ...

Test, Check, Verify

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

You have to understand that there is some interpretation to the tests ALL tests have to be interpreted to how they fit you

For example what you wrote in the last two posts about the TNT and HHT

If that were me doing the test I would assume I had a toothy edge, that may or may not be true for you, check with your loupe and see if that is what you find..

You have to Test Check and Verify your way to being able to assess the edge, it takes practice and time and more practice and more time...

We can only give you the info as it works for us and hopefully parts of it will work for you,,, So many people mockingly say "It is just honing it ain't rocket science" they don't realize how true that actually is :p If it were rocket science we could give an exact formula that would work every time, for everyone, on every razor :D


Hone On !!!!


Ps: Now that the TNT feels good to you try the AHT and see what happens does it cut hair along the whole edge, does the TPT feel good along the whole edge, how does it look under the loupe ...

Test, Check, Verify

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Awesome thank you, I have been learning a great deal here. Were you referring to the toothy edge when I asked about the blade grabbing my nail heel to toe? On the 1k I tried seeing the bevel and it passed all the test but when I shined the bright light down in the edge I could still see a faint white line, then I did a few spine leading strokes and the edge was invisible, what would that info mean to you? Just trying to pick your brain :)

Side note: I continued with that bevel through the progression to finish and a great shave with zero sting from the aftershave...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dshaves

Awesome thank you, I have been learning a great deal here. Were you referring to the toothy edge when I asked about the blade grabbing my nail heel to toe? On the 1k I tried seeing the bevel and it passed all the test but when I shined the bright light down in the edge I could still see a faint white line, then I did a few spine leading strokes and the edge was invisible, what would that info mean to you? Just trying to pick your brain :)

Side note: I continued with that bevel through the progression to finish and a great shave with zero sting from the aftershave...

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The comfortable shave is the only test that matters

Now you can keep adjusting ONE aspect at a time to improve how smooth it is

Myself I am very hesitant about ending on spine leading laps, I use them, and Japanese honing (Back and Forth), but I always finish off on every stage with edge leading..


The TNT can also be used to Kill the Edge/Joint/Downstroke once you learn the technique, it is a gentler version of using the hone or corner of the hone..

There are tons of little tricks to draw out the smoothest edge possible, once you are getting a CCS like you did then you can start playing around with them..

And yes if the Bevel set TNT is very hard and very "graby" then you very well might have a toothy edge in which case a Jointing or Corner of the hone light stroke to kill the edge might smooth it up, and then gently reset the bevel and move on again...

Update again! I have successfully honed 4 other razors with the same method since working with my very difficult Hart steel blade and I have come to a similar conclusion across the board. It turns out I wasn't far off from having the most wonderful shaves ever.

Yes I learned a lot from this OP question about bevel setting but that wasn't the problem it was totally revolved around torquing the blade to the edge riding the wave of water each pass that made the world of a difference. Thanks Glen!

There is a lot of stuff out there in videos and suggestions in forums but I did not find much info on folks stressing the edge torque issue. Maybe for others it comes naturally or is common sense or maybe it doesn't make much of a notable difference for them? Anyways consistent torque pressure while watching the wave of water in front of my razor told me I was hitting all pistons and the shave was song worthy! Which is what I learned here in SRP!!!

I will note that without torquing the edge down to the stone there can be a false positive that the water looks identical gliding over the edge as it should but the results will pass all the test except the comfort test. Without torquing the blades edge down to the stone the edges point will most likely get touched, sort of like it will hydroplaning no surface traction!

Again thank you everyone :)

There are so many subtle things that make honing easier or faster or smoother. They are so much easier to learn in person, that is why I so often tell people the best place to learn is at a meet.