Origin of the Verb "Bread-Knifing"?

On the various straight-razor threads, I read that so-and-so (myself included) bread-knifed the blade to remove a chip. By this, what is normally meant is that the spine was lifted off the stone at whatever angle to remove a visible chip that otherwise would have taken an eternity to remove the normal way with the spine in contact with the stone.

I'm not interested in the merits or demerits of bread-knifing in this way, just interested in the origin of the term itself. Dictionaries do not seem to provide any clues apart from a description of the serrated blade of a bread-knife, which is sharpened differently.

So I am left to posit a possible origin: given that bread-knifing when applied to razors usually involves a noticeable chip or chips, perhaps the term relates to the razor's resemblance to a serrated bread-knife upon starting the honing process?

Normally bread knifing a razor is done with the razor vertical to the hone and you saw back and forth like cutting a loaf of bread. The method you describe is a modified version designed to cause less work in the long run.

Bob

I believe 'bread knifing' refers to running the edge of a razor across a hone as if you were slicing a loaf of bread, hence the term, bread knifing.

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Originally Posted by BobH

Normally bread knifing a razor is done with the razor vertical to the hone and you saw back and forth like cutting a loaf of bread. The method you describe is a modified version designed to cause less work in the long run.

Bob

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I believe 'bread knifing' refers to running the edge of a razor across a hone as if you were slicing a loaf of bread, hence the term, bread knifing.

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Thank you both for your comments. Indeed, I was thinking of any angle up to and including ninety degrees. As for the origin of the term, is it just an Internet forum thing? or was it used in past times? I recall a treatise on microtomes from the early part of the 20th century that advocated running a chipped edge along the side of a black Arkansas to remove the chips, but the term bread-knifing was not used.

A euro member recently said that in his country it was called 'ice skating'.

I'm pretty sure the term is just a modern Internet forum thing. I don't see any benefit to sawing a blade back and forth on a stone at a 90 degree angle. That's not the only thing I've seen referred to as breadknifing though. I've also seen it used to describe strokes with the spine lifted to 45 degrees. I use that move often for heavy bevel use. It kinda drives me crazy how quickly people advise breadknifing for tiny little chips.

Personally, I've always been careful to distinguish between what I call "full-frontal" or "head-on" bread-knifing (~90 degrees) and "modified" bread-knifing (<90 degrees). So should the term, bread-knifing, be reserved for 90-degrees only? And if so, what is a smaller-angle approach in lifting the spine to be called?

Just playing devil's advocate here guys. The explanation of the angle used in slicing a loaf of bread makes perfect sense, as does "ice-skating" (or "patiner," as I may know it from my tribulations with the French language).

The first time I heard the phrase "bread knife the blade" was around 1980 by my grandfather. He definitely didn't learn that phrase from the internet. So the term has been around a while. I don't know where he learned the phrase from.

I'm just guessing here, but I wonder if the term "Bread knifing" might also refer to removing chips in a razor, as the chips make the blade look like a serrated bread knife?

I don't ever recall my Dad mentioning those words, but now that I think of it, I can't remember seeing him hone razors, only stropping them at his barbers chair. I DO remember him making pasted paddle strops, tying his own hair brushes with horse hair he went to a farmer to get... going through an entire box of hard rubber combs, selecting the best ones for himself and distributing the rest to the other barbers in his shop. I also remember seeing some hones, but never him using them... probably because he wanted peace and quiet when he was doing that sort of thing.

Regards

Christian

Has to be because it makes the blade as 'dull as a bread knife' right!?!

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Originally Posted by EisenFaust

Has to be because it makes the blade as 'dull as a bread knife' right!?!

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Here you might say dull as a butter knife.

Bob

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Originally Posted by Brontosaurus

Thank you both for your comments. Indeed, I was thinking of any angle up to and including ninety degrees. As for the origin of the term, is it just an Internet forum thing? or was it used in past times? I recall a treatise on microtomes from the early part of the 20th century that advocated running a chipped edge along the side of a black Arkansas to remove the chips, but the term bread-knifing was not used.

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I only became acquainted with the term through shaving forums, but if Chris Wilson's grandfather used it in 1980 it obviously has been around awhile. I will add that Harrelson Stanley, the USA representative for Shapton, would do a 90 degree feather light pull across a hone, and called it 'jointing.' He said in a video I once saw that this was a good way to get rid of any microscopic chips along the edge.

Not as large as what we refer to as micro chips. In the video he began with 'jointing' the edge on a coarse hone, like a 1K IIRC, then honed up to 10 or 12k and, to my amazement, jointed again on a 10 or 12k, before finishing the razor. This was done with no more than the weight of the blade, and only one swipe ......... IIRC.

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Originally Posted by kaptain_zero

I'm just guessing here, but I wonder if the term "Bread knifing" might also refer to removing chips in a razor, as the chips make the blade look like a serrated bread knife?

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That was my original premise in starting this thread. Subsequently dismissed. Glad I'm not the only one to come to this conclusion. ;-)

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I will add that Harrelson Stanley, the USA representative for Shapton, would do a 90 degree feather light pull across a hone, and called it 'jointing.' He said in a video I once saw that this was a good way to get rid of any microscopic chips along the edge.

Not as large as what we refer to as micro chips. In the video he began with 'jointing' the edge on a coarse hone, like a 1K IIRC, then honed up to 10 or 12k and, to my amazement, jointed again on a 10 or 12k, before finishing the razor. This was done with no more than the weight of the blade, and only one swipe ......... IIRC.

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This is a curious technique. I wonder what the final "jointing" on 10-12k was seeking to achieve: a burr that was subsequently removed in stropping?

Look to History :)

The old razor hones will often have Cuts in the corners from "Killing the Edge/Jointing/Downstroking" call it what you want seems the new trend on FB is to make up a new term for an old technique and claim it as yer own anyway.. :(


There are all just different "degrees" of the same technique (pun intended)

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Originally Posted by Brontosaurus

This is a curious technique. I wonder what the final "jointing" on 10-12k was seeking to achieve: a burr that was subsequently removed in stropping?

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When I saw him do it in the video my jaw dropped.

I confess I've tried it, but it is not a technique I've adopted. Different strokes for different folks. :)

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Look to History :)

The old razor hones will often have Cuts in the corners from "Killing the Edge/Jointing/Downstroking" call it what you want seems the new trend on FB is to make up a new term for an old technique and claim it as yer own anyway.. :(


There are all just different "degrees" of the same technique (pun intended)

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Indeed, like the guy who invented a new watch that never needs a new battery you just need to wind it once in a while...

(Old hones have cuts in their edged.)
Old razor often have their spines worn down too.
"If the Pope sins, you don't have to follow him."
Be very careful with the BreadKnifin! In most cases you shouldn't do it!!

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Originally Posted by Johnus

Be very careful with the BreadKnifin! In most cases you shouldn't do it!!

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+1 ...... I call it "the nuclear option.".......... :nono:

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Originally Posted by Johnus

Be very careful with the BreadKnifin! In most cases you shouldn't do it!!

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Why ???

789

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Why ???

789

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IME breadknifing ends up being a lot more work to restore the bevel. Of course it depends on the severity of the chip to be removed, but I like lifting the spine, as the honer is sharpening a pocket knife, and working the chip/chips out like that.

This way you are maintaining some semblance of a bevel, and it is less work to finally restore the bevel when you get far enough into the chip.

Not theoretical. I've done my share of the nuclear option and would only rarely resort to it knowing what I know now. I'm not referring to the technique known as 'jointing', that is another kettle of fish. One I don't find necessary, but different strokes for different folks.

I guess my pet peeve is always the same

Much like Bevel Setting has a zero sum definition from Edge Restoration to just a simple evening up the the two sides

The Term Breadknifing can mean from the extreme option to the subtle killing of the edge or "Jointing" and at multiple angles too

I get so tired of hearing it takes too long or it wastes steel when both have been proved wrong, but the myths continue..

No worries, has bugged me for years

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I guess my pet peeve is always the same

Much like Bevel Setting has a zero sum definition from Edge Restoration to just a simple evening up the the two sides

The Term Breadknifing can mean from the extreme option to the subtle killing of the edge or "Jointing" and at multiple angles too

I get so tired of hearing it takes too long or it wastes steel when both have been proved wrong, but the myths continue..

No worries, has bugged me for years

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Well I would say there are degrees. Each blade has to be examined on the condition of the edge. For instance, this Joseph Rogers in the pic was one ..... the first one I bread knifed. Because of the size of the chip I might do that again.

OTOH, that was before Lynn Abrams introduced circle honing to the forum in '08 I think it was. But this razor was a bear even breadknifing on a diamond plate. It was a 10/8 when I began and a hair less than 9/8 when I finished.

Attachment 247284Attachment 247285

Getting the bevel back took a hell or a lot of time. That particular razor, with the tools & knowledge I had at that time, breadknifing was the best option.

Attachment 247283

When I refer to it being 'more work', in my case it is a fact. I can't speak for anyone else's experience.

I'm surprised you lost more than 1/8. That chip looks small.

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Originally Posted by prodigy

I'm surprised you lost more than 1/8. That chip looks small.

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Notice that it was the width of the existing bevel, maybe a bit more in the hand, than in the picture. Then, after the bread knifing you have to remove steel to get a bevel back. Took a long time to get the chip out ......... many sessions, and a longer time to get the bevel, sharpen and finish.Very tough steel in that animal.

I too never understood the Bread-knifing bias.
Years ago I was taught by a master carver to sharpen chisels, hone 90 degrees to the edge to remove a chip and get to solid steel. Then sharpen the bevel, by first honing at 45 degrees, to near meeting, then honing at the proper degree. It only takes a minute to do it that way on a grinding wheel or stone.

The same for a razor, remove the chip, then high angle hone the razor (45 degrees), with the spine off the hone, to where the bevels are almost meeting. Then hone normally, you should be able to set the bevel in a few minutes.

Either way, you will remove exactly the same amount of material.

here is the Stanley razor honing video,

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Originally Posted by prodigy

I'm surprised you lost more than 1/8. That chip looks small.

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Yeah the chip may not be 1/8" worth of honing but if you look at the devl's spit towards the toe of the blade it becomes less surprising.

I remember the term being used on usenet knife boards long before I knew there were straight razor forums.