Honing 4/8 blades.

For some reason I can never get 4/8 blades as sharp as my other straights.

When I'm finished with the others I can run the blade down the hair on my leg and it just pops off. When I do it with any of my 4/8's (and I'm the only one who has honed them) it doesn't do that.

Most of them are Spike from Oneida Cutlery from Ebay. I had some other brands though and I have the same problem.

I spent a lot of time the other night honing one just to see if I could get it sharp. Nope.

Any idea why I only have a problem with this sized blade?

In general the blade width should not make a difference. Blade geometry makes a big difference and so does the blade material. The only Oneida Cutlery that I know of is the current company selling flatware. So what brand is your razor? Could it be that you are just playing with a sub par razor? I have to think that the issue could not simply be the width of the razor. Another factor has to play into it.

It's a vintage razor but they used to make a razor labeled "Spike". You see a lot of them on ebay.

I also have a Wade and Butcher of that size and I have the same problem with it.

Are you honing with tape on the spine? The narrower the blade, the more the tape increases the bevel angle.

I have honed a lot of Spike razors. They are excellent USA steel and hone up amazingly sharp. They are also wedges or near wedges so my guess is your bevel is not set. They can take a while to get a good bevel set.

Most EBay beaters, take a bit more time to set a bevel. What stones are you using and what was the condition of the razor.

Some photos would help.

Are you using magnification and ink, to ensure you are honing to the edge?

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Originally Posted by sqzbxr

Are you honing with tape on the spine? The narrower the blade, the more the tape increases the bevel angle.

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So, tape or no? I understand this is an age old question. But, is there a point where taping increases the angle too much...making it closer to a knife vs a razors edge?

I recently acquired a 7/16" Pipe razor and was wondering If taping to set the bevel was going to make it too steep.

You would have to add a lot of tape, to get the angle where it would not shave, on a new, wear-less spine. More vintage razors have angle issues, were the spines are excessively ground, tape is how, that is corrected.

Chances are a layer or two, of tape will just get the angle close, to where it was originally.

Tape is highly recommended for new honers, to preserve the spine while learning to hone, who typically use too much pressure, and do too many laps on low grit stones.

The whole, spine/blade width wear, bevel angle “theory” has been debunked.

One reason a 4/8 is harder to hone is because it is easier to make a slip and ruin the edge. The blade has to lay flat on the hone. The 6/8 and 7/8 wide blades gained in popularity. They are easier to keep flat. A 4/8 blade can also tend to bite you quicker. If you don't have your shave angles correct, they will give you a good reminder. Hope this makes sense.

Most people will have a dominate and a weak pass. Practice will help with pressure consistency while making your hone stroke, pass.
MIke

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

You would have to add a lot of tape, to get the angle where it would not shave, on a new, wear-less spine. More vintage razors have angle issues, were the spines are excessively ground, tape is how, that is corrected.

Chances are a layer or two, of tape will just get the angle close, to where it was originally.

Tape is highly recommended for new honers, to preserve the spine while learning to hone, who typically use too much pressure, and do too many laps on low grit stones.

The whole, spine/blade width wear, bevel angle “theory” has been debunked.

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OK...Thank you!

I watched gssixgun, as well as a few others, video on youtube, when I 1st started (re)honing my SR's. Granted, I've only been doing this for a few months. But, after acquiring a 7 day set, one learns pretty quickly...or at least it worked for me. As a 'test' of my honing skills, or lack thereof, I sent a few razors to a few different members, as well as to brick and mortar shops, to have them make my razors 'shave ready.' Then I compared my honed razors, as far as shave quality. Much to my delight, I could only tell a very slight bit of difference, if any, from thiers and mine. So, in my minds eye, I'm doing it right.

As Modine mentioned, I 'assumed' the smaller blade would be more prone to 'user error' in terms of honing (and use).

This thread has inspired my to soak and lap my stones and tackle my 7/16" Pipe razor. Tomorrow will be the 'test.'

If a blade is 8/8 or 4/8 with the proper geometry the bevel angles will be the same/similar. Adding a layer of tape to either will alter the bevel angle the same amount which is very little. IIRC about 1/2 a degree in either case.

Bob

Be careful with taping a 4/8 or smaller blade. If one side of the tape is further down the blade than the other, not centered on the spine, you may be riding on the bottom edge of the lower tape's side and not the spine. The heavier the grind the more careful you have to be. This has happened to me.

Bob

Ink is your friend. A Colored sharpie, is easy to see, even without magnification. I almost always, ink a bevel, before first putting it on a stone, it is just a quick, easy way to see where you are starting out.

Lightly drag the side of the sharpie tip along the edge, it will “paint” both sides of the bevels at the edge, and the “feel”, will tell you, if you have the slightest chip.

Black ink, can look like a shadow, especially under magnification, Red, Blue or Green ink jumps out at you.

There have been a lot of good points. You do live in an area with several members that have a lot of experience. Perhaps some one on one time will help you get past this. When honing I rely on my loupe quite a bit to help me see when the bevel is correctly set.

Tape kinda puts it into perspective...the size difference!

Attachment 249445

(Don't judge me on the Pokeman towel! :-) )

It is a secure man that posts a Pokemon towel on a mens forum.

I thought Lynn honed on a Sponge Bob mat, on some of the old videos.

Whatever works. I use a plastic food tray, from the dollar store.

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Originally Posted by AcesandEights

Tape kinda puts it into perspective...the size difference!
(Don't judge me on the Pokeman towel! :-) )

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Yup, that is what I mean about tape and 4/8 and smaller razors. It might, in some cases, be a good idea to narrow up the tape by cutting it lengthwise before applying. Especially on the near wedge stuff.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

Yup, that is what I mean about tape and 4/8 and smaller razors. It might, in some cases, be a good idea to narrow up the tape by cutting it lengthwise before applying. Especially on the near wedge stuff.

Bob

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Yep. In my 1st few passes, with the tiny blade, I looked closely at the edge of the tape, to ensure I was on the blade and not the tape edge.

'Centering' the tape on the spine is more critical on the tiny blades.

Ink on the edge showed it was really 'out of whack.' Probably typical of a SR purchased from the wild. Although, 60 or so swirls on 1K evened everything out. Another 40 on 4k then pyramid down to 10/5 on the norton 4K/8K and it seemed to come back to shape.

Now to strop....which, at this size, will test my stropping ability.

I don't use tape. I went back and tried again. At 1k it cut hair. After I'm though at 4k it doesn't.

Obviously I'm doing something wrong at 4k but I'm not honing any differently than any of my other blades and they are all fine.

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Originally Posted by gcbryan

I don't use tape. I went back and tried again. At 1k it cut hair. After I'm though at 4k it doesn't.

Obviously I'm doing something wrong at 4k but I'm not honing any differently than any of my other blades and they are all fine.

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I can't find the thread now but that is a phenomenon that can happen with some stones. If you are cutting hair at 1k but lose that sharpness in some intermediary stage 2 things can be happening.
1 All is good. Continue on to finish
2.You miscued a stroke on 4k & mucked it up.
3. You have a false positive at 1k.

Alright, 3 things can happen..... Reminds me of the Spanish Inquisition sketch.

I figured it out. I have a full sized hone for the 1k and after the 1k it cuts hair. My 4k, 8k, and 12k are all small hand held hones. On the larger straights it all worked out.

With the smaller ones I wasn't really keeping the edge down on the hone. I'm just using one hand and don't have a finger to press down the other end. This was causing the problem.

Even my smaller hones I have on the countertop when I am honing, and I have a 4x10 piece of 1 inch thick rubber that my hones or my hone holder sit on just to get that extra clearance to the counter. It also gives a good grippy surface for the hone to sit on so it doesn't move around at all. My rubber is a cut off from a anti shock mat for people standing on concrete floors. I think you could probably repurpose all kinds of things to do the same job, it was just what I had lying around.

The other complication is that the 4k and 8k are slip stones so they don't lay flat but you can stack them on each other and then they are flat.

I'm going to have to get back to doing that. I use a towel to keep things from slipping.

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Originally Posted by gcbryan

I figured it out. I have a full sized hone for the 1k and after the 1k it cuts hair. My 4k, 8k, and 12k are all small hand held hones. On the larger straights it all worked out.

With the smaller ones I wasn't really keeping the edge down on the hone. I'm just using one hand and don't have a finger to press down the other end. This was causing the problem.

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Honing with one hand is actually the ideal as it prevents unintended pressure but it takes a bit of practice.