New honer needing some advise

I'm currently attempting to hone my TI and am having some trouble. The edge didn't seem to be super sharp off the 4K side of my 4/8K norton. So, I tried the sharpie test to check the bevel. I find this (hopefully it's somewhat visible).

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...81da096b5c.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...f4edfb8899.jpg

It looks like the spot around my top finger is not being honed.

What's the proper way to correct this? I only have the 4/8K norton, and am a beginner at razor honing in every sense of the term. I've only sharpened one other razor. Right now I'm thinking of three options:

1. Keep on the 4K until it's all even.
2. Apply slight pressure to that spot as I hone.
3. Send it to Lynn or Glen.

I'm hoping to get this razor in great shape because it's my favorite (of only 2) razors. I bought it the day my wife and I married so it's a bit sentimental to me.

I think all 3 of your solutions would work. BUT, since you are attached to the razor, I would hone my skills (bad pun) on a razor you're not afraid to mess up. Try PMing Lynn or Glen for their opinions.

Is that rust on the bevel or ink, the spots? What does the other side look like?

A photo of the razor without your thumb on the heel, on both sides would help.

You can easily set a bevel on a Norton 4k, but the razor may have issues. What those issues are, will determine how to hone it. The condition of the spine and edge may tell the tail.

More than likely there is some warp in the blade, set it on a flat surface on both sides and see the condition.
Colored ink is easier to see, and will not be confused with a shadow or rust mark.

Use 2 layers of tape, to set the bevel, then once set, drop down to one layer. But first post some better photos so we might figure out what is going on.

What you should do, depends, if you just want to shave, send it out for honing. If you want to learn to hone, post some photos and we can get you over the hump. If you can find a local mentor, you will cut your learning curve dramatically.

I would do #2. Whether it's warped or unevenly honed the result is the same and you still have to get it all sharp.

You're not going to mess it up. As you can see, it takes a while to remove steel. :)

I'm no expert however so place more emphasis on the other's advice.

If I was you I would add a layer of tape to the spine.

Perform some light rolling X strokes (YouTube can help)

If the ink remains try adding one more layer and more rolling X strokes.

Looks like a nice blade...Good luck..

It looks like you're hitting the toe half and not hitting the heel half. Is that what's going on? If that's the case you can experiment with some different strokes and see if they help. Try the rolling x like JOB15 suggested. You could also try going heel forward with a bit more pressure focused of that portion of the blade.

New production TIs have a problematic reputation, that is some have very uneven bevels that are challenging to correct. If yours is one of these I'd recommend you send it to a pro to have the bevel properly set and the edge brought to where it should be.

Get a 1k to set your bevel. My 2cents...

does the opposite side look the same? if it's warped it will look opposite (as far as the marker wear is concerned). in which case i would send it out. that's one trick i haven't learned deal with but there are way around it if you know what you are doing. a treasured razor isn't something i would want to learn on. JMHO

The way I see your photos;
1. Your spine is consistant with your edge problem, the edge is not being honed other than the last 1/3 from the toe. Look at your spine, I see wear that would cause your problem. You can double layer it, as suggested above, that might level the spine enough to lay the edge flat.

2. I'd layer it & rework/reset the edge at the 4K. I would not leave the 4K until the problem is solved.

3. Touch-up of a previous shave ready blade is "honing". The place to begin your honing journey, IMO. So, as suggested about, get a standard set by sending it out & then maintaining it with your 8K or whatever finisher you have.

I would try using a layer or two of of tape, heel forward X strokes with some tourqe towards the heel.

Or......

Send it off and practice with a razor with no sentimental value. As john said the best way to begin honing (IMO) is to maintain a shave ready razor.

Good luck

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Originally Posted by Wayne1963

I think all 3 of your solutions would work. BUT, since you are attached to the razor, I would hone my skills (bad pun) on a razor you're not afraid to mess up. Try PMing Lynn or Glen for their opinions.

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The more I'm thinking about it, I may try to send this one out to a pro. I still have a Boker I can sharpen, and have sharpened. I may try a few of the rolling x strokes first though. I doubt me getting it, but it'd be a learning experience. If I do send it, would be in bad form to ask them to finish it with the norton 8k? I think it'd give a good benchmark if I ever try again.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Is that rust on the bevel or ink, the spots? What does the other side look like?

A photo of the razor without your thumb on the heel, on both sides would help.

You can easily set a bevel on a Norton 4k, but the razor may have issues. What those issues are, will determine how to hone it. The condition of the spine and edge may tell the tail.

More than likely there is some warp in the blade, set it on a flat surface on both sides and see the condition.
Colored ink is easier to see, and will not be confused with a shadow or rust mark.

Use 2 layers of tape, to set the bevel, then once set, drop down to one layer. But first post some better photos so we might figure out what is going on.

What you should do, depends, if you just want to shave, send it out for honing. If you want to learn to hone, post some photos and we can get you over the hump. If you can find a local mentor, you will cut your learning curve dramatically.

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Those spots are the spots I put along the edge with a black sharpie. I went with black because it's the only color sharpie I own.

The opposite side seems to be flat with a decent bevel. I placed sharpie marks on it as well and they were removed with a few strokes on the 4K. The pictured side though,
the the marker wasn't removed around the area about 1/3 up it. It was removed before and after that area. The good looking side also moves water better than the bad side.

Setting the bevel with 2 layers and then removing 1 for the finer honing confuses me. Wouldn't doing that create a situation where the finer stone wouldn't be able to contact the cutting edge of the bevel and instead cause you to hone the back edge of the bevel?

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Originally Posted by Maladroit

New production TIs have a problematic reputation, that is some have very uneven bevels that are challenging to correct. If yours is one of these I'd recommend you send it to a pro to have the bevel properly set and the edge brought to where it should be.

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I hope mine isn't too bad off. I'd like to get it Honda Ke by me one day.

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Originally Posted by MisterClean

Get a 1k to set your bevel. My 2cents...

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I'd love to, however I have other items that need purchased first. Perhaps next year for my birthday or Father's Day.


I'll post another couple pics to see if they help show what I'm thinking and seeing. It's almost like they sharpened one side at the factory with too much pressure and thinned one spot out a little too much. They got the other side correct.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...9a96c171bc.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...0abdb39430.jpg

Hopefully these will capture the blade decently. Its difficult for me to capture it well with my phone.

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Originally Posted by Hirlau

The way I see your photos;
1. Your spine is consistant with your edge problem, the edge is not being honed other than the last 1/3 from the toe. Look at your spine, I see wear that would cause your problem. You can double layer it, as suggested above, that might level the spine enough to lay the edge flat.

2. I'd layer it & rework/reset the edge at the 4K. I would not leave the 4K until the problem is solved.

3. Touch-up of a previous shave ready blade is "honing". The place to begin your honing journey, IMO. So, as suggested about, get a standard set by sending it out & then maintaining it with your 8K or whatever finisher you have.

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I'm beginning to think a send out is in order. When I have some more time tonight I'll try to study the spine area and see if I can spot what you're referring too. Even if I can't personally correct the problem yet, I'd like to figure out what is happening and why.

Since it has sentimental value, I'd suggest sending it out. You can still practice on your Boker, and work on your technique(s), and always get more blades in the future that you can hone. Sooner or later you'll get blades that have issues and you can work on them to learn more.

You can always keep the TI as your "reference edge" for comparing the results of other blades that you hone.

It'll be good to get a 1k to round out your setup, but for maintence on blades that aren't real problem blades, the 4K will do the job - just might take longer. No rush in getting one.

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Originally Posted by cstilt

I'm hoping to get this razor in great shape because it's my favorite (of only 2) razors. I bought it the day my wife and I married so it's a bit sentimental to me.

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Honing like a wife takes practice!:D

Yea, the blade is warped, not uncommon for a new Thiers Issard from AOS.

But first, you are honing on the stabilizer and keeping the heel off the stone. You have ground down the stabilizer on one side where the heel is honed to the edge, but keeping the other side off the stone. When honing on the stabilizer, most folks just use more pressure, until they grind the stabilizer until the heel portion of the bevel is making contact. Don't do that...

Note the heel portion of the bevel is not hitting on one side. The toe bevel, is not hitting on the opposite side and there is very little wear on the spine over the toe, because of the warp. But it is not badly warped. An X stroke will easily hone the entire bevel.

You can hone it on a 4k, but must, remove some steel. So, you should use tape to protect the spine. Once you remove steel from the spine, you can never put it back, and most new honers use, too much pressure and do too many laps. The spine gets needlessly excessively ground.

I recommend 2 layers of tape, until you get a solid bevel on both sides, you will be using some pressure and doing some laps. 2 layers of tape will protect the spine, because it is easy to burn through a single layer. You will learn to feel when you burn through, the spine feel sticky or you feel the bits of tape in the slurry as a slight bump.

Once you have set the bevel fully, then remove all the tape and put on a fresh single layer and reset the bevel to the new angle. It should not take too many laps to reset, using an x stroke. Use 1 layer from then on.

The heel also needs re-shaping, as a hook is starting to form and is now a sharp corner. Now is the time to fix that, or that corner will cut you.

Re-shaping the heel, will also bring the corner of the edge further forward and well out of the way of the stabilizer.

So, 2 layers of tape and some circles, in set of 20, concentrating on the heel on one side and toe on the other. Ink the bevels. Pay attention to the ink removal and the wear on the tape, until you have a continuous bevel on both sides. Then do X strokes to eve out the bevels and set an even stria pattern on the bevels.

An investment in a colored sharpie, will allow you to easily track your progress, with the naked eye. Colored ink is easy to see. I use Red and Blue.

Cstilt,

Before damaging your razor due to advice you got here, get out that sharpie again please. I really don't care which color you use. Mark the entirety of the stabilizers on both sides of the razor. Now hone a few strokes in exactly the same manner that you have done previously and use whatever taping arrangement that you used before. Please report back on what you see happens to the stabilizers. Photos would be helpful but you also could just describe it.

I think you might find this article of some use, it just by happenstance is based on a TI from AOS :)


http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...-you-leap.html

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Cstilt,

Before damaging your razor due to advice you got here, get out that sharpie again please. I really don't care which color you use. Mark the entirety of the stabilizers on both sides of the razor. Now hone a few strokes in exactly the same manner that you have done previously and use whatever taping arrangement that you used before. Please report back on what you see happens to the stabilizers. Photos would be helpful but you also could just describe it.

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If I get some free time tonight I'll try to get some pics like you asked for.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I think you might find this article of some use, it just by happenstance is based on a TI from AOS :)


http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...-you-leap.html

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Thank you for sharing that article. From what I can tell, the same person must have finished my razor as the one you fixed. Now I need to do some researching to see how to correct all those issues you identified.

Just needs a proper honing.

Here is a post of a new guy taking a problem razor to shave ready. A little long, but full of good information for a new honer, with excellent micrographs, (Second Try at Honing).

Get some tape and good magnification.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Just needs a proper honing.

Here is a post of a new guy taking a problem razor to shave ready. A little long, but full of good information for a new honer, with excellent micrographs, (Second Try at Honing).

Get some tape and good magnification.

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Thank you for that. I made it part way through it tonight and it had lots of info that i needed. I'll read some more on what I'm getting into before I try any more. Seems like I started before knowing all I needed.

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Originally Posted by cstilt

Thank you for that. I made it part way through it tonight and it had lots of info that i needed. I'll read some more on what I'm getting into before I try any more. Seems like I started before knowing all I needed.

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Chuckey, TN! Good to see you, beautiful country up that way.

Cheers, Steve (Knoxville)

Also check for frown by holding it edge down on a known flat hone and check for light coming through between two contact points. I've seen a few factory fresh razors with frowns in the last few years

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Originally Posted by Steve56

Chuckey, TN! Good to see you, beautiful country up that way.

Cheers, Steve (Knoxville)

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Thank you and yes it is. Glad to see more people from TN on here.

I promised some pics with coloring the edge and stabilizers with ink, and I finally had time to get around to it. I tried to hit all the important areas with the sharpie. I added 2 layers of tape tonight. I think I'm going to tape from this point on and now seemed like a good place to start. All strokes were performed on the 8k side to minimize material removal. I also adjusted my stroke a bit. Instead if perfectly flat straight back and forth, I attempted to do X strokes.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...8f544d34fd.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...6aa227092e.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...cf76c323c0.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...95073286dc.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...5adf5e7588.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...571a90c9d4.jpg

And this one is for Glen
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...a432db1e11.jpg

I think I left this one out.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...c025ca21f1.jpg

Thank you for doing the photos that I requested. As I suspected, the stabilizer had no role in the problems with this razor.

Looks like you're hitting everything now. Time to take it to the 4K or 1k and get that bevel set. Don't forget that the tape will wear down so it needs to be replaced periodically.

Good work, staying off that stabilizer, now the full edge is on the stone. You should reshape the heel to move the sharp corner, forward of the stabilizer.

There are several threads on how to reshape a heel, it is easy to do and the metal is very thin there, so it is just a matter of a few strokes on a diamond plate or low grit stone.

If you don’t feel comfortable doing the heel, I can reshape and hone it for you, just cover the return postage, $6.80. PM me.

I do repairs and honing for, 3 of the larger AOS stores here, in Southern California, so I have seen a few TI’s.

WD40 will remove all the sharpie ink.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

WD40 will remove all the sharpie ink.

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Interesting. I usually use my face to do that.....:p

A fun one to me anyway is to use a sharpie to remove the sharpie marks. For example on a pressure gauge I like to mark the point of "normal" so I can tell at a glance where the needle should be. If I want to change where normal is I mark over the old mark and wipe it away before it dries.

The solvent in the marker dissolves the old mark.

He stayed off the stabilizer because the stabilizer was not in the way.

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Originally Posted by BeJay

Looks like you're hitting everything now. Time to take it to the 4K or 1k and get that bevel set. Don't forget that the tape will wear down so it needs to be replaced periodically.

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I think you're right. I don't have a 1k, but I believe I can get there with the 4K if I don't rush it. After just concentrating on my few strokes removing the ink, I was able to get the front to pass the HHT. Hopefully I'll get the rest if it without too much difficulty.

I think I'll also periodically use ink while finishing it to keep myself honest on my strokes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Good work, staying off that stabilizer, now the full edge is on the stone. You should reshape the heel to move the sharp corner, forward of the stabilizer.

There are several threads on how to reshape a heel, it is easy to do and the metal is very thin there, so it is just a matter of a few strokes on a diamond plate or low grit stone.

If you don’t feel comfortable doing the heel, I can reshape and hone it for you, just cover the return postage, $6.80. PM me.

I do repairs and honing for, 3 of the larger AOS stores here, in Southern California, so I have seen a few TI’s.

WD40 will remove all the sharpie ink.

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Thank you for the kind offer, but I believe I'll pass for right now. Removing a little from the heel seems like it shouldn't be too tough. I do appreciate the advice you've given me.