Why should I kill the edge before honing?

This is another example of there are many paths to the perfect edge. Some follow this a lot, some follow this at times and others never do it. Of those that follow the technique it is to smooth the edge and remove small chips and imperfections and bringing the two edge together into a perfect apex for the full length all at the same time. As you may have already guessed, Utopian does not follow this technique at all. Gssixgun does and I do as well. Soon enough you will hear from others that do it a lot. We can all achieve great edges. Is it needed to get a great edge. Not really. I think it gets me there faster. I think that by killing my edge on a trouble blade I can get my bevel clean and solid faster than just honing through it. Utopian chooses to just hone past it. We are both correct, at times I justhonepast it too. By killing the edge, it is most often done wIth a light touch on my thumb nail. In extreme cases on the edge of my hone. In all cases it is a single stroke and very light at that. Do not think you are going to make things better by sawing on the hone.

Let's keep straight the difference between killing an edge and joining/jointing an edge. The former is done to deliberately dull an edge before honing to set a bevel in order to clearly notice the transition of an edge from dull to sharp. The latter is done to straighten an edge, or remove chips, after one or more stages in honing.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Let's keep straight the difference between killing an edge and joining/jointing an edge. The former is done to deliberately dull an edge before honing to set a bevel in order to clearly notice the transition of an edge from dull to sharp. The latter is done to straighten an edge, or remove chips, after one or more stages in honing.

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Yes. Yes. This seems to constantly pop up as a confusion point.

Then there is that 'breadknifing' term that was popularized on the knife forums that very seldom has any relevance with razor honing.

So you are saying that if I remove the apex mor than once during my honing session it is joining/jointing the edge and if I only do it as part of the bevel set it is killing the edge.
Or
Are you saying that if I dull the edge before I start to set the bevel, that I am killing it, and everything else is joining/jointing.
Sorry Ron, I'm just trying to get it right, I am not trying to be a thorn.

Jointing the blade lies on an angle to the stone, killing the edge is more or less perpendicular

“Just new to honing and learning a lot, everything seems logic from what i've read, but killing the edge doesn't...”

So, as said, it depends. As a rule, I do not.

The practice of killing the edge on a glass was a way to compare honing edges, so others were at the same starting point, and now seems a common technique. But is unnecessary, because as soon as you put the razor to a hone, the edge is never the same after the first stroke.

If the edge is chipped, then yes, I will “kill it on a stone to straighten, joint it and remove small micro-chips, then hone. If the chips are large or the edge needs reprofiling, then breadknife or high angle hone it to remove large chips and or reprofile, as in after heel correction or reshaping a smile.

Killing/Jointing is one or two light strokes, bread knifing is whatever it takes…

For most edges, I just set the bevel, see what the edge looks like, and go from there.

One of the truest adages of honing is, you do what the razor, needs. As Shaun said either way works, and as with most thing in this hobby, there are many roads to Rome, and few absolutes. Try different methods and find the one that works best for you.

Make sure to tape your spine, until you master honing, then decide if tape is for you.

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Originally Posted by RezDog

So you are saying that if I remove the apex mor than once during my honing session it is joining/jointing the edge and if I only do it as part of the bevel set it is killing the edge.
Or
Are you saying that if I dull the edge before I start to set the bevel, that I am killing it, and everything else is joining/jointing.
Sorry Ron, I'm just trying to get it right, I am not trying to be a thorn.

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I don't feel that you are being a thorn at all. I'm not taking it that way.

In direct answer to your question, I would say that the second version is correct.

I'm just going by the terminology that has historically been used here. I consider whether or not I advocate or oppose either technique to be pretty much irrelevant but I do hope that our terms can be used in a way to avoid confusion. Maybe I'm wrong with my considered distinction between the two terms but here is how I consider them...

My first recollection of killing the edge as a common term was when Bart advocated it when he was promoting one coticule honing. I do remember it being very rarely used before that but it seemed to be in the same context. That was, that in order for a beginner to better understand when he had created an at least adequate bevel set, the beginner would take a razor that may actually feel somewhat sharp and would run that edge along a glass or a corner of a hone. This was done to create a blatantly dull edge. This way the beginner could feel a very noticeable change when he brought that edge back to sharp, supposedly when the bevel was set.

In summary, killing the edge was done as the very first thing before the beginning of setting a bevel. It's purpose was to make it easier for a beginner to realize when he had created a relatively sharp edge.

Joining or jointing the edge started being discussed when a side honing video was created. I think JimmyHAD was the first one that I recall describing it. The side honing was the primary difference in technique but it also described joining or jointing the edge in order to make a straighter edge, either by removing a burr or small chips in the edge. Later JimR's translation of Iwasaki's honing treatise was made available. Many interpreted (incorrectly in my opinion) Iwasaki's final finishing step as a description of joining/jointing. That caused an increased propagation of the method as a means of correcting flaws in the blade created during the honing process.

In summary, joining/jointing was done to remove minor defects, such as burrs or chips, in the edge that occur during honing in order to produce a cleaner edge.

LOL

You guys are funny

it is the same technique, only the degree of use is different

Ranging from Re-contouring the edge or removing huge chips during Restoration,, or a feather light touch at the later stages of honing

You are dragging the very edge (fin) of the razor across a hard surface to even up that edge, only the degree of change you want to accomplish is different

Now go back to arguing about the name,,,



to the OP: Assessing the edge first, determines what you need to do :) I would concentrate on getting a solid bevel set,,, it is the most important aspect of honing anyway....

Whaw, this is one active forum :D thanks for all the replies, I think I know why you should or shouldn't kill or join the edge now. AND have learned other stuff at the same time.
I've been shaving with a SR for five years, but only just ordered some honing stones to be able to revive my grand-grand fathers SR.
It's already de-rusted and shiny like a mirror, now sharpening can begin after training on some other old razors.

The technique is the same. I only wanted to clarify the difference in their purposes.