Printable View
I've read this is possible. So I took my ZY Razor that I bought just for practicing honing and took it from 1k to 4k and 8k Nortons. Then put it on a strop for 50 strokes. So, before I try to shave with it tomorrow, am I right about this? I'd rather not find out the hard way. ha.
I'm just trying to learn all I can and this seemed like a nice test.
Try shaving off of a 1k edge first.
Then try the 4k.
Finally, then, try the 8k.
Well, photos would help.
If you fully set the bevel, removed all the 1k stria with the 4k, the 4k with the 8k, got the edge as straight as possible and chip free, you should be good.
The trick is a fully set bevel and edge, straight as possible at 1k, keeping it straight and chip free. Maxing out each stone. Stropping on Linen would help, then leather.
With some Chrome Oxide, you could have a comfortable edge.
You will know on the first pass.
It is very possible to shave off 8k. I did it for at least a year before getting my 12k. There is nothing wrong with it at all, as long as; as stated you max out each stone. You must remove the previous hones stria. 8k will leave a nice polish on the blade.
I did not try utopians suggestion of shaving off all the different grits but I am taking his word for it :)
I cut back to 1 razor honed on nothing but my Norton 1, 4, and 8k hones for a good 6 months. It's not a bad shave, I could live with it. But like everyone else, there are edges I like better, and I simply enjoy playing with naturals and finishers.
Like utopian suggests, you can actually shave OK with a 1k edge. I tried that too at his suggestion around the same time. It was very informative. It tugged a bit, but not nearly as torturous as I imagined.
Not a bad idea for a new honer to do, cause if you can't get an 8k shaving comfortable your not ready fir a 12k or higher, and if your using a natural finisher, you will get a great transition. Like someone said, " if the bevels not set, your just polishing a turd" they honed on an 8k or less around here for a while, plus the infamous Coticule isn't much higher, and some not even. Tc
Like EJ, I shaved off a 8k King for several years. I would not want to do it again but it can certainly be done.
I learned how to hone off the old Norton 4/8K. It was the only stone I used for the first couple years.
Have fun.
I like the idea of shaving off of each level. That does sound like a good way to learn/feel the differences. Thanks Utopian for that. I just don't want to hack my face up in this learning stage. Well, at least not hack my face as much as I can keep from it. ha.
I have another ZY razor that I'll start with a bevel set and give that a go. I think I'm doing ok with each progression but of course I know I'm not perfect yet. Here's pics of 1K. 4K, 8K. I noticed the 1K still has some chips in it. So I guess that would not do.
1K...
Attachment 256390
4K
Attachment 256391
8K
Attachment 256392
I tried to get the pic of the same spot in the blade every time.
Also the edge get thinner towards the middle of the blade then wider again at the tip. You can see it getting thinner in the pics. But the bevels have met. Should I hone more and more to try to correct this? I didn't know if this was right or could be done.
Yea, me too. At the time I thought it was a great shave too. Even now it wasn't too bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
Wow! I got a reply from Lynn! Second time this has happened. I better mark this down. I feel special now. Oh, I know, Its because its my B-day. :rofl2:
Thanks Lynn.
And all that have replied!
Hoping to learn this honing bit the correct way as fast as I can. But don't we all.
My guess is that there is a geometry issue with the razor that is why you see the bevel is wider in not spot and not the other. That may not be correct just my novice 2 cents.
Does the blade sit flat on the hone?
If not then you may have to do some modifications like people do with the gold dollars. Again I'm learning something new with honing all the time I may not be 100% just bouncing ideas. Great quality pics though.
If you honed the razor properly, you should get a decent shave off of a 1k edge. If you "hack" your face, then you're doing something wrong. You may be surprised at how well it works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gasman
Yup. The key to a good shave starts from the bevel set. If those chips are there after the 1k, the odds of you getting rid of them on higher grit hones are pretty low.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gasman
:tuQuote:
Originally Posted by Gasman
Good job on that. It really helps to see the true progression that way.
An easy way to accomplish it is to put a sharpie mark on the belly of the blade close to, but not on, the bevel.
As long as the bevels meet, you're good. One way or another, the honing stroke that you did does not match the one done previously to make the original bevel. If you want to "correct it," you will have to alter your honing stroke to flatten out that part of the bevel farther. It's not really necessary to do that though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gasman
Well it sounds like im at least going the right direction. Maybe i should have spent a little more time on the 1k. Although when i finished with the 4k the chip was gone. Maybe i just got lucky. Ill watch for this better on the next one. Ill start on it here in an hour.
I use a sweeping X stroke when honing. Hope that explains it. Might have to watch a couple more vids on honing strokes. I figured i needed to know one stroke that will work with smilling and straight edges.
I don't know if it is most, but many razors will have variance in the width of the bevel. This is due to the variation in the spine/bevel when they made the thing. No need to correct AFAIC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gasman
When I first got into this I had a Norton 4/8 and a Shapton pro (Japanese not supposed to be exported) So I used the 12k because I had it. Randydance told me to shave at the 8k level because then I would know that I was ready to move on up to the 12k. If I went up prematurely I might still get the same edge after all was said and done, but I'd work a lot harder, and waste 12k doing what I should have done at 8k.
I was surprised at how good the shaves were at 8k. Truth be told, if I had stopped there, and never bought another hone, I'd have still been fine and saved a bucket full of money, but going through all those hones was a lot of fun.
I've never shaved off of a 1k or a 4k, and I don't intend to. If you do it let me know how it feels, I'd rather find out second hand. :)
It may just be a photographic artifact, but I just noticed that the 8k photo may be showing that the bevel is not reaching the edge on the right side of the blade. The reflection pattern of the bevel leaves the edge on that side of the photo.
That is possible. It could be the refletion of the light or not light. I'll have to check on that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
I've spent the last 2 hours trying to get the bevel set on this Second ZY razor I have. I'll show 2 pics now. One before I touched it. Yikes! And the next after 2 hours on the 1K. It still wont pass the TPT.??? And barely cuts hair on my arm. I've went at this thing in many patterns on the hone. Started with+ preassure and slury to blade onlt presure and straight water. Its just not agreeing. It looks great under the microscope but its telling me the edges havent met. I know ive taken away metel on both side so I cant emagine the edjes have met.
I was think to go to the 4k and see if it will turn up some more but dont know if this is right. I've Killed the edge a couple times too while on the 1K to see if that would help and still no go.???
Yikes!
Attachment 256402
After 2 hrs
Attachment 256403
Opinions?
I mean look at that 1K bevel. Its a beauty but wont cut hair at all.
Have you looked straight down at the edge? If it won't cut hair, I'm thinking the edges aren't meeting yet.
That x stroke of yours does not look like mine. I keep my blade straight 90 degrees to the stone and then while keeping the 90 degrees i pull down and across the stone, so that when I am at the end of the stroke my tip is the only thing touching the stone. Turn it around and do the same thing the other way. Someone has the technique as their avatar but I can't remember who it is.
Figued it out I think. I've been honing away for 2 hours on 1K on the same piece of tape. :dropjaw:
This is causing my bevel to get wider and not staying in contact with the edge. :banghead:
I know better than this. Sorry all.
As far as MY X stroke. Its done with the heal leading and a bit of a swoop at the end to make the toe catch up just a bit. More of a straight down the stone then a little off the edge. I'd do more standard X stroke but this razor has a bit of a stabilizer/shoulder/little sharp piece. Ha. So that the heal is just on the stone. If I go in an X then the heal is only on the stone for for very little time.
Hope that made sense.
I gotcha, sounds good to me.
Nothing wrong with using a heel-leading x-stroke to clear the stabilizer, it's a pretty standard honing stroke. Changing it to 90 degrees won't offer any advantage. Good catch on the tape wear, check it every 20 laps or so when bevel setting.
Ya Randy dance has it on his avatar, gasman, maybe try another piece of tape, I,m of the opinion your not getting to the edge, and two hours? I can't even imagine that in a 1k. After 20-30 minutes it's time to evaluate the job again. With the usual bad geometry of those razors, you just may need to add a layer, like was said look at the very edge straight down with light and see if there is any reflections. Tc
You must not be using any pressure on blade, 2 hrs on a 1000 I wouldnt have any tape left, Did you notice little black pieces on hone?? We,ve all been there it is easy to get lazy on changing the tape, Thats how we learn, Ty
I'm sorry, I meant to say that what I'm seeing on your razor does not look like what I get when doing 90 degree x strokes. Looks like the pattern left is the same grain as the blade itself which is straight across. No x pattern at all. My scratch pattern looks like it is 45 degrees to the blade. I see a few lines of 45 degree pattern but not the whole thing.
This is my edge, finished though. Can still see the 45 degree pattern left.
https://s27.postimg.org/gh2827gjn/image.jpg
Upside down anyone?
https://s23.postimg.org/55hqpd423/image.jpg
You are right. My patern is not at an angle. I'll check into that must be my strokes somehow. I do try to to use much preasure. Maybe a bit more might help.
BTW, I did take a break and come back to it with new tape. :aargh: Got the bevel set and put it on a strop for 75 laps. Took it up stairs and shaved three strokes, not passes. As I can see it will shave at 1K just not as close and you can feel every whisker as it cuts. Not really bad but now I know one step in FEEL. Good to know for sure. I'll take it to 4K and go shave a bit again. This has been a nice learning experience. Thanks for all the comments and help. I got a feeling that at 8K the shave will be fine. Not that I'd want to stop at that point but I can see it would give a fine shave. I think.
Sounds good so far! When you go to your Soubudani Asagi, you can do the same thing with the nagura - test shave after each one.
Will do! But I got a feeling there wont be all that much difference in feel after the first nagura. But I've been wrong before.Quote:
Originally Posted by sqzbxr
I did a test shave at 4K. Its doable. Not too much of an issue except it's just not going to do the job. Thinking at 4K I'd have to do 4 passes if not 5 to be clean.
At 8K. I could do this all day. 8K was right were it was fine. Three passes would give a solid shave. Id say even with no discomfort. This has been a great thing to learn and feel. I bet after a bit of time and more learning I'd be able to tell by feel how far back on the hones I'd need to go to correct an edge and for a serious touch-up. And I've been taking lots of pics and I'm starting to see the differences in the scratches. I wish I had two more days to do this but 1am its back in the big truck I go. Got to make some money you know.
Here is my last pic with the 8K. Now I have to admit I got too excited and went I went back to the hones to start the 8K I forgot to put tape on. Did about 8 Circles before I realized it and you can see it on the bevel. All in all this was a good thing and I hope all new guys give it a try.
Attachment 256411
One more thing. I'm not sure if its just the razor being ground better or the 4/8 I took of it on the 1K (ha) But the edge is very even across the length of the blade. Nice! This one is a good one for 8 bucks worth of Chinese razor. ZY, A good thing to grind up while learning to hone. Now wheres that Filarmonica. ha.
Oh, And what helped me the most was using Lynn's Circle method. That seemed to do the job a lot faster. Plus with the light X strokes after the circles, Find thing to know. Glad I went back to the vids!
:tuQuote:
Originally Posted by Gasman
When setting a bevel I tend to start out with a little pressure (maybe torque would be a better word...?) until the edges meet. That makes the job go a bit quicker, then I'll dial it back in phases so when I'm done the 1K stria aren't too deep. That sets you up to make the work on the 4K go by faster. Same for the 4k, but with a little less pressure. The 8k probably shouldn't require pressure, it's pretty quick to remove the 4K stria.
Sounds like you're doing pretty good so far! Looking forward to hearing how the 4k and 8K go for you.
Edit: did it really take 20 minutes to write that? This is what I get for pausing to browse Mastro Livi's site...
Congrats on getting the ZY tuned Gasman! Glad to hear you got good results from the Norton hones. I like that little yellow devil.
STICKY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rock:
I will take this ZY up thru the Jnat/Nagura stones next. Then when its all done I'll give it a few shaves and then Kill the edge and start over. This was the reason for buying them so I can learn by doing over and over. Now when it starts to get a bit thinner I'll stop. Or when I think I got this figured out without thinking.
I was going to do my Eyre over today. Well, do the naturals over but just didn't get to it. Guess I'll have plenty to do on my next weekend. Thanks to all for the comments and help. This was a fun day and being my B-day and the wife and kids at work I enjoyed honing and listening to some good music. What a Day!
