Honing a GD 66: what I learned about it, me, and my Apart

A few months ago I bought a GD 66 on eBay. I know, I know. I've read the reviews from really qualified people. I've read the statement here.

The thing is I'm a cheap ass. And I have read some reviews by people that say they are decent shavers. Maybe I'm a glutton for punishment. So I bought anyways.

It showed up today. My first straight was a cheap Indian razor (again, cheap ass) and it was better in many ways than that first razor (which incidentally is a wonderful envelope opener).

The scales were better than I thought but they are kind of fat unlike my good razors. I haven't used it yet but I don't think they will bother me too much. They are tight and the pins seem to be solidly placed - not sticking out or anything.

The real difference is the razor itself.

It is...rough...to put it nicely. At the toe of the razor there are a few chips. Not sure if that was caused by me honing or if it came from the factory like that. Either way is bad news.

There are machining marks at the heel and shoulder where someone tried to cut down the excessive material above the heel which, as everyone suggested, would stop me from properly honing the heel of the razor.

The razor was sharper than I expected. It couldn't cut hair and didn't pull hair but cut paper well and I certainly wouldn't have drawn it across my skin.

Under the jewelers loupe there were clearly visible and large scratches in the blade and nicks in the edge.

I should specify that the blade was not sharpened, I don't think, but a very very rough bevel was ground into the blade.

I've been having trouble with my Apart barbers hone and decided that I could start off honing this blade with that. I'm sure some of you are wondering why I would choose that as the first hone to work on a blade from the ground up. Well...I've come to the conclusion that my apart is a sub 5000 grit stone. I've tried to use it to refresh a pulling blade but it just makes it worse.

So I started with the Apart. Pressure and circles and lots of swarf. The deep scratches were replaced with less deep scratches but chips were still visible. The center cleared up first and the edges after so I had to give them some extra love. Heel never did clean up.

After doing passes with the Apart it was shaving hair.

I repeated with the 4k and the 8k and by the time I finished it was shaving well though I found it to be irritating, or raw, if that makes sense. Better after stropping. But it was a quick test with cold water, a little lather, and the blade.


So lessons:

Gold dollars really are cheap. Really.

Gold dollars can get shave sharp. Just maybe not comfortable.

Maybe I'm not so terrible at honing?

My apart hone is pretty low grit.

The GD 66 has a lot of poor characteristics. I know you are cheap, but you could still have considered yourself to be cheap and gone for a GD 208 which is only a few dollars more, but a much better razor with better scales.

There are a number of YouTube videos on honing a Gold Dollar, including the GD 66. You have to fix the shoulder of the blade first so it will sit flat on the stones. Otherwise, you will never get it shave ready. You will probably have some spine wear when you are finished honing, but if you do it right, you can get a decent shave.

Hmm...interesting that your Apart is so coarse. Makes me think perhaps someone abused it a bit along the way. Might be a good candidate for some high grit sand paper love and burnishing to see if you can make it finish properly.

I agree you might have had better luck with a 208. Mine shaves comfortable off the Norton 8K. Otherwise I probably wouldn't have kept it. If the 66 is as chunky as a 208 that might have had something to do with it. My 208 is about the heaviest razor I've got, and if I'm not mindful of that it's easy to end up using a bit more pressure while shaving than I might with any other blade.

They can shave, and comfortably. Just might take a teeny bit more work than a good vintage or (much) more pricey new manufacture razor.

I didn't realize the 208s were better when I ordered. I discovered that the 66s were known for being especially horrible about a month after I ordered.

As far as the shoulder, I intend to remove material soon.

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Originally Posted by Marshal

Hmm...interesting that your Apart is so coarse. Makes me think perhaps someone abused it a bit along the way. Might be a good candidate for some high grit sand paper love and burnishing to see if you can make it finish properly.

I agree you might have had better luck with a 208. Mine shaves comfortable off the Norton 8K. Otherwise I probably wouldn't have kept it. If the 66 is as chunky as a 208 that might have had something to do with it. My 208 is about the heaviest razor I've got, and if I'm not mindful of that it's easy to end up using a bit more pressure while shaving than I might with any other blade.

They can shave, and comfortably. Just might take a teeny bit more work than a good vintage or (much) more pricey new manufacture razor.

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Yeah I thught so too. I'm going to be sending it and this razor, and a few of my other antique razors, off to utopian for his opinion on them. I'd like to see, again, if maybe I'm more of the problem than the apart.

I had won a GD66. It was fixed and honed up for me by a honemiester. Ive used it twice now and get great shaves from it. Twice. Ive read the edge dont last on them if you get one shave ready. I plan on customizing mine when i get a chance so i can learn how to cut out thumb notches and work over the tip to another shape.

Good luck on your GD. You got to fix it. Then it gets better, but a used low cost old razor would have been a better deal in the long run.

Utopian will fix you up! And we all learn from our mistakes. Well for me it might take twice to learn. Ha.

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Originally Posted by Gasman

I had won a GD66. It was fixed and honed up for me by a honemiester. Ive used it twice now and get great shaves from it. Twice. Ive read the edge dont last on them if you get one shave ready. I plan on customizing mine when i get a chance so i can learn how to cut out thumb notches and work over the tip to another shape.

Good luck on your GD. You got to fix it. Then it gets better, but a used low cost old razor would have been a better deal in the long run.

Utopian will fix you up! And we all learn from our mistakes. Well for me it might take twice to learn. Ha.

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I wouldn't have bought it if I didn't already have a few good ones...This was a little experiment.

I'm hoping utopian can give me some perspective on my honing technique and stuff. ;-)

I don't think the 66 is "horrible". After reading this thread I found my old Gold Dollar to see what model it was. It is a 66. I remembered that I had corrected the shoulder issue.

I had it in homemade scales (spalted maple) that I made too thick so I never liked to use this razor. Today I found some spare plastic scales and put the 66 in those scales and honed it with my standard hones (including a new "ocean blue" hone) and shaved with it.

It shaves as well as my other razors.

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Originally Posted by gcbryan

I don't think the 66 is "horrible".

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Yup. That's a great recommendation for the GD (double entendre intended) razor.

I shaved with it tonight. With the grain it did quite well and shaved comfortably. It wasn't as smooth as my good razors, but it was far from a bad shave. I decided to go XTG - I don't do XTG or ATG often and I predicted irritation.

It got quite close, but, as expected, I experienced some irritation. Probably means I should have spent more time on the hones.

My opinion of it at this time is that it is a 'good enough' razor for light use, depending on how that edge holds up.

It is far from the likes of a W&B. no comparison at all.

Always important to learn lessons...

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Yup. That's a great recommendation for the GD (double entendre intended) razor.

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I got a good shave from it. What more do you want from a razor? :) I don't feel the same "vibe" as I do from my vintage razors but that's more an issue with me than with the razor wouldn't you say? :)

It's heavy but people love the weight of a big wedge. The GD is a 6/8 or more isn't it?

The scales, until you replace them are ugly, the Gold Dollar stamp on the blade is ugly until you remove that.

Otherwise, it's like arguing about the shave from a DE vs a cartridge. There really is no difference but we just like DE's and straights better. :)

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Originally Posted by gcbryan

Otherwise, it's like arguing about the shave from a DE vs a cartridge. There really is no difference but we just like DE's and straights better. :)

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[emoji33]

Hahahahahaha..

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Originally Posted by gcbryan

I got a good shave from it. What more do you want from a razor? :) I don't feel the same "vibe" as I do from my vintage razors but that's more an issue with me than with the razor wouldn't you say? :)

It's heavy but people love the weight of a big wedge. The GD is a 6/8 or more isn't it?

The scales, until you replace them are ugly, the Gold Dollar stamp on the blade is ugly until you remove that.

Otherwise, it's like arguing about the shave from a DE vs a cartridge. There really is no difference but we just like DE's and straights better. :)

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The Gold Dollars are 6/8" razors and their weight is typical of 6/8" razors with similar grind profiles. I have two 5/8" vintage razors, but they are too light for me. My most recent purchases have been 3" long 7/8" blades and they are a lot heavier than the typical 2 3/4" long 6/8" blades . I love the heavy blades as I can use the weight of the blade to cut through my beard smoothly.

With heavier blades, all I have to do is guide it whether I am shaving, honing, or stropping. A lot of experienced shavers started with 5/8" razors because they were hesitant to learn on larger, heavier blades. Once they become comfortable shaving with a straight, they move on to 6/8" or larger blades and never look back. I don't even look at 5/8" blades anymore. The next razor on my wish list is a 15/16" wacker.


I feel the same way about DE razors, I love long handle, heavyweight razors.

It is all a matter of preference, however. My wife likes to cut up vegetables with a small pairing knife. I like using a heavy chef's knife and let the weight of the knife do the work. As always, YMMV.

With the Gold Dollars, the higher numbered razors are better finished and ground. The 66s are the bottom end and they are rough. I use 208s for test razors.

All of them can be made to shave well enough but it typically takes a couple of hours on a 66 and that's having done Gold Dollars many times and understanding what you're doing.

A good example of a 208 or a Gold Monkey can be decent razors though the scales are still crude and you'd never mistake either for a well made, well balanced razor.

Cheers, Steve

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Originally Posted by gcbryan

I got a good shave from it. What more do you want from a razor? :) I don't feel the same "vibe" as I do from my vintage razors but that's more an issue with me than with the razor wouldn't you say? :)

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If by vibe, you mean any sort of attachment given to the vintage because it has 'history' and isn't 'just a cheap Chinese blade' then yes, I agree with that statement. More you than razor. If you mean the shave is just a smidge better from your vintage blades then I would say you're probably not imagining it. It probably actually is the razors.

I mean there's no arguing the steel used in Gold Dollars isn't that great. It was rehashed in another thread, I think it was Utopian that said he saw one broken in half to display the shabby grain and poor heat treatment.

I just finished up a GD 66 and have one more to go, sent to me by a friend that selected 'good' ones for me. Also have 4 Gold Monkeys on the way, same blank but a little thinner and lighter, fewer defects and ground a bit better - saves me time. I suspect they are high graded out of the lot. They'll shave well but the bevel angle is usually too steep, around 18.5 degrees which makes for a mild edge but if you want a laser it's best to thin the spine around 2-3 degrees.

I haven't noticed the steel being bad and I don't think you can gage razor steel qualities by the way the blade breaks. Now if you showed me a gas chromatograph analysis I'd believe that. They hold an edge comparable to most mainstream razors. I use them as test razors and on air travel and they always make me glad to be back and pick up a Tanifuji lol.

I did the basic geometry correction on this one with a Shapton Glass HR double thick 500, a fast cutting stone well suited for 'good' Gold Dollars. I began as always by taping the EDGE and working the spine a little thinner and flatter, then setting the bevel. I have Atoma plates and a Shapton Pro 320 for the stubborn ones. Next up, my standard series Shapton Pro 2k, 5k, 8k. I had a bit of bother getting the last 2-3mm of the toe to pass HHT at 5k, back to the 2k, then back up and all is well. I have another decent test razor or one I won't go back for if I leave it in the hotel.

There really isn't much point in criticsing or praising them; they're good for some things but they're not really a pleasant razor to shave with, ergonomically. They were never meant for the Western market. They're good to compare stones, naguras, etc because where can you get a half dozen razors all the same for an affordble price. The downside is that all 6 will need considerable work, but once that's done they work well. They're a particularly critical test of a hone because the bevel angle is too steep; if your hone, nagura, and methods can do silent HHT root in or out on a Gold Dollar, you have yourself a truly fine setup. Not every hone can do this.

They remind me of those Communist-era Eastern European cars, once you halfway remanufacture them they'll get you where you want to go but everyone would much rather have a Mercedes. But they keep the wear off better razors for me, and though there are tons of unlovely razors on eBay, you'll end up with different grinds, steels, tempers, etc which are not so good for comparing things.

And I still have problems putting wear from testing on a fine razor though time has not treated it well. Just me I guess.

Cheers, Steve

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Originally Posted by Steve56

I haven't noticed the steel being bad and I don't think you can gage razor steel qualities by the way the blade breaks.

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You don't judge the steel by how it breaks. You break it so that you can look at the grain structure to see the size and type of grains that exist in the steel. Steel is not just steel after it is heat treated and quenched. The size and types of the grains formed make a huge difference in its microstructure that can dramatically affect the characteristics and behavior of the steel.

The heat treatment of Gold Dollars is bad and it easily is revealed by breaking the blade and simply looking at the steel.

I think that I respectfully disagree with at least part of this. I worked for about 20 of my 33+ years at Oak Ridge National Laboratory supporting the Metals and Ceramics Division and was also an x-ray safety guy. I am not a Ph.D materials scientist (thank goodness!) but I am familiar with how they tested metals because I did safety reviews of the testing methods. Todd Simpson did his post doc work there and I know his former sponsor pretty well.

You can't see steel grain on a broken surface, even with an electron microscope. The surface has to be flat and polished because the electron microscope has essentially no depth of field. The tool in current use to section or prepare a surface for microscopy is a focused ion beam, or FIB.

I am less informed about heat treat, because I was not involved with it as it did not involve radiation, but usually the hardness is (simply) tested with a tool under pressure, sort of like that dot we used to see on Puma knives.

I am questioning the original source that said you could tell much about what was claimed by looking at a broken steel surface. Do you have a source for that Ron? I'd like to see what was actually said.

I'm retired, so I have no time - lol - but I'll try to look up someone who knows and see what they say. I have a drawer full of dud Gold Dollars, warped, bent, etc so maybe I can send one or three to Todd if he's still doing that kind of thing.

Cheers, Steve

If you would like to look up someone who knows, then contact Mike Blue, who is a member here.

I attended Howard Clark's "ites class" last fall and we saw dramatically reduced grain structures in the GDs when they were properly heat treated.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

If you would like to look up someone who knows, then contact Mike Blue, who is a member here.

I attended Howard Clark's "ites class" last fall and we saw dramatically reduced grain structures in the GDs when they were properly heat treated.

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Ron,

I am retired but loved my former technical work, so please do not take my comments the wrong way. You may get more questions than you expect and I am not trying to be difficult, but you have made comments that make me almost want to go to work again. But not quite.

Who is Mike Blue and what is his background? I can PM him but he might take such a query, out of the blue, the wrong way. I do not want to offend anyone.

What's an 'ites class'? Does Howard Clark do materials science? What did he use to see reduced grain structures? That usually takes an electron microscope.

My apologies sir, you have stirred my curiosity and just tell me to go away and I will!

Cheers, Steve

Mike Blue and Howard Clark both are members here and their usernames are their names.

Mike has a medical background but is an experienced blademaker. He is a fairly active here. If you ask Mike a question, he will answer it. You probably would be hard-pressed to offend him just by asking a question.

Howard Clark makes a living making blades--primarily Japanese swords. He rarely is on this forum. Howard has worked closely with John Verhoeven for years. His website is HERE.

"Ites class" (as in martensite, austenite, cementite, ferrite, pearlite, and bainite) simply was the name of Howard's heat treatment class. Despite taking his class, I cannot claim any expertise in heat treatment; however, it is my understanding that according to the ASTM, the standard method for grain size determination is by grain count under 100x magnification.

Mike Blue, being available here, is a much, much, much better source of information than I am for anything relating to steel.

Thank you Sir!

Cherrs, Steve