Stone width

I'm sure I've brought this up before but it feels like deja vu. I've been struggling getting great edges with my 3" wide stones where if I start over on 2" hones I can easily get a great edge... I know it shouldn't matter. I've seen the threads and read the recommendations of drawing 1" line lengthwise on your 3" hone. I have tried this hone inception of honing on a hone within a hone. Didn't really drive anything home at the end of the day the hone was still 3" wide. It was all just a dream.

This problem is exacerbated by a smiling edge or one with a toe that's been ground down more. It's not that I'm not rolling my strokes on the wider hone. I am but I always end up missing the toe a tiny bit and can visually see that my stroke is off by inspecting the bevel and seeing a discontinuity in the bevel face. I.e. A second bevel starting about .5-1cm before the end of the toe which I would attribute to not rolling enough because the heel to where the hone isn't hitting (that .5-1cm from the toe, the original bevel) is evenly honed. Maybe I'm having difficulty keeping an even stroke with this extra width ?

I'm using naniwa 5-10k pro which are very fast and awesome btw but cut fast making a stroke issue end up very visible. I can't fault the hones.. only myself.
I need some advice because I'm ready to drop all my 3" wide stones in the bst and let someone who can effectively use them have at it.

Is it a mental barrier or is there truly a difference? I've put in about 6 hours this week trying different things. I learned in 2014 on a 40 and 50mm wide stone to hone. Could I have developed a stroke optimized to a thinner (width) hone? Is that even possible?

The bevel was set. Please do not give the advice to set the bevel. It's keeping my stroke even through the progression.

A bit of a rant but It's a kick in the nuts to have these nice stones and end up using a small coticule to hone start to finish... why even have them?

I am not so much of a rolling stroke user as a swooping stroke. I learned that stroke from watching Glen's videos, the smiling wedge series more than any other. Don't get me wrong there is still some roll in the stroke. Perhaps give the vids a view and see if you can see what stroke I am talking about and maybe give it a shot. I find it very easy to use that stroke and typically only ever use 2" of my hone.

Its only very rarely that I use the full 3 inch width of my hones. I seldom keep the razor at that "perfect perpendicular" The simple fact is, the spine on many razors is not honed on near the heal end. if you put them at that 90 deg all the way up on the stone, you end up "lifting" the heel side of the razor, which results in no contact on the heel, and more wear at the toe, and many long moments of "WTF is Wrong with this gdamned piece of c#*@)(((@

Keep your razors at a 30 or 45 deg angle on teh stone, and spin the stone around to use the other side from time to time to keep the wear even. Remember, most of these stones were not made with straight razors in mind, they were made for "tools" Nobody ever said a 3 inch stone was needed to hone a razor, but dollar for dollar, that is the most useful average size. Guys with a big wood chisel would be sad if they had to sharpen on a 1.5 in coti!

Turn your Choseras on their sides and hone on those 1 inch sides. If you do that for a while you should be able to properly hone on the wider surfaces too.

That's how you do it. I lap all sides of the hone.

@Solitarysoldier I would say tape your spine and do more pronounced rolling strokes, i.e lift that heel a bit more than it's necessary, or press on it to lift the toe a bit more, to the point where the sound of the contact will change (it will become sharper). That will ensure the tip and heel are getting the necessary action. Then dial it back down to the point where the sound doesn't change. Ink the ends as well, so you can use your eyes more easily and make sure you're making contact. Practice makes perfect, hence tape the spine, to prevent unnecessary wear and use light pressure. That's the best I've got, hope it helps somewhat!

You are, way over thinking this.

So, with vintage and especially smiling, vintage, warped razors you do what it takes.

With a warped razor on the concaved side, the toe and heel will make contact but the middle will not. On the other side the middle will contact and heel and toe will not. Recently in another thread, a guy muscled a new razor, destroyed the spine grinding it and bevel flat, because the middle would not touch.

All he had to do was, tape the spine, hang to heel off the stone and hone the middle or use a narrow stone, so the heel and toe would not keep the middle off the stone.

To hone the opposite convex side, you will have to, use a rolling X, to hone the whole edge evenly, honing about a ½ inch at a time.

Toes and heel on many smiling razors can be honed separately, meaning you can do a modified rolling X, on the heel or the toe just to get the bevels to meet, not a full stroke. Where you start with the edge, almost parallel to the edge of the stone and roll it around the corner of the heel or toe and lift the heel or toe, sometimes as much as a 1/4 inch or more, just to hone the radius. Here sharpie ink will quickly show your progress.

Once you have the toe and heel edges meeting, the edge will be faceted, separate from the middle bevel, so do some light, exaggerated, rolling X strokes to blend the 3 bevels together, without damaging the edge on any of them. This is where the gymnastics comes in.

Take your time and use light pressure on the heel and toe, too much pressure can cause you more problems, excessively removing material or causing deep stria, that will have to be removed.

Nobody says it has to, all be done in a single stroke, whatever it takes…

You're right I am probably over thinking this. What I'm not understanding is how on a 2" or less wide stone I can get the whole bevel in a single stroke where on a 3" it's like I'm looking for a doorknob in the dark and end up with multiple bevels in some cases.

It just doesn't feel right.

That is what my OP was trying to state.

Random question...when you use the 3" stones you're setting them on a bench I assume? So...when you use the smaller 2 inch stone, are you honing on the bench as well, or with the hone in hand? I know sometimes the ability to articulate both the stone and razor helps, but other times maybe not so much.

You've got to be doing something different with the thinner stones to be getting different results. Key is to figure out what that is. Regardless of the width of your hone, your strokes should begin and end the same. Do a few slow and careful strokes on your 2 inch hone and watch closely. Then do the same on your 3 inch stones. See what it is that you're changing up.

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Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER

You're right I am probably over thinking this. What I'm not understanding is how on a 2" or less wide stone I can get the whole bevel in a single stroke where on a 3" it's like I'm looking for a doorknob in the dark and end up with multiple bevels in some cases.

It just doesn't feel right.

That is what my OP was trying to state.

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It is all in the stroke you are using, not in the width of the hone

The width of the hone is irrelevant, the "gymnastics" of the stroke that is working on the 2" hone can be used on a 3" 4" or 1" hone and do the exact same thing

That is the purpose of the "Draw a Line" exercise, if you were to put the 2" hone on top of the 3' and do the stroke that works, then remove the 2" hone and do the exact same stoke you will get the exact same results..

Part of mastering honing is to master the ability to perform the necessary "Honing Gymnastics" to move the edge evenly and equally across the hone in front of you
Basically if you have the skill to do a single stroke that covers the whole edge on any hone, you have the skill to hone on any hone :p

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Originally Posted by Marshal

Random question...when you use the 3" stones you're setting them on a bench I assume? So...when you use the smaller 2 inch stone, are you honing on the bench as well, or with the hone in hand? I know sometimes the ability to articulate both the stone and razor helps, but other times maybe not so much.

You've got to be doing something different with the thinner stones to be getting different results. Key is to figure out what that is. Regardless of the width of your hone, your strokes should begin and end the same. Do a few slow and careful strokes on your 2 inch hone and watch closely. Then do the same on your 3 inch stones. See what it is that you're changing up.

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Bench for the 3". Handheld for the thinner ones.

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Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER

Bench for the 3". Handheld for the thinner ones.

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That may be where the difference lies. Rather than the stroke of the razor on the stone, possibly be the way you pitch/roll the stone in your palm? I'm thinking perhaps that's leading to a slightly different bevel at the toe than what you would get with an immobile bench mounted stone.

I don't have a problem honing on stones of any width, as long as the stone is long enough for my stroke. Even if it is a shorter stone, I can alter the stroke to catch the length of the edge from heel to point. I think it is a mental block kind of thing you're suffering from. If a person is a perfectionist stuff like that can be troublesome. Don't ask me how I know. :o

I sort of suffered from the same affliction when I had 3" wide strops. Obviously we're only going to use the width of the strop that is needed to service the blade, but for some reason it bothered me that there was all this leather. I cut my one 3" strop to 2 1'2" and sold my other one.

Anyway, just work on honing on a 3" width with your regular stroke and eventually it will become normal.

I'm not a honemeister and I don't hone for anyone else but myself. While the rolling stroke is something we all want to get correct, mistakes happen. But its really not a big deal. You can simply correct it. If you missed the toe, go back and put just that part of the blade on the hone and give it the attention it needs. Sometimes I break the blade up into sections depending on the issues the blade has. If it has an exaggerated smile, I might give extra attention to the heel, center, and toe as needed. Then be sure to do a few careful rolling strokes to ensure its all evened out nicely. If the razor doesn't sit flat on the hone, give the front and back some extra attention to be sure the whole edge is getting sharp. The key is to monitor it at each stage. I think what many people in this hobby forget is that we're all going to make mistakes. Its not the end of the world. You just have to go back and correct it. Next time it'll be better.

Unless I am using full size hones and even then i am a fan of holding the stone in hand. I can feel and gauge steel / hone contact much better this way. Better feedback IMO and can get a real sense of progress. I still hone on the bench with a holder for certain applications and phases of the process like edge repair or setting a bevel or restoration. But once things get settled in and pressure is no longer desirable, the hone sits in my hand for mid range to finish. I just got used to this and I like it because i can tilt the honing hand and the stone hand to better deal with the situation.

My understanding of various honing strokes/gymnastics improved dramatically when I began to study my inked edges as I honed. Keep the Sharpie handy, re-ink often, study the results after each honing stroke and adjust your technique accordingly. Soon you will have a clearer understanding which angles and dangles work for a particular blade.

For very smiley or warped blades I prefer narrow hones. 1" wide Thuringians are great.

All I can add is maybe stick with them for a while and don't buy anything else till you master them.

"No amount of money spent on a Stone can ever replace the value of the time it takes learning to use it properly"... A quote I read somewhere...:w

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Originally Posted by Grazor

All I can add is maybe stick with them for a while and don't buy anything else till you master them.

"No amount of money spent on a Stone can ever replace the value of the time it takes learning to use it properly"... A quote I read somewhere...:w

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See I've always been of the thinking that is you don't have a bevel you're just polishing a dull edge. But this stone thing has me thinking. :rofl2:

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Originally Posted by OCDshaver

See I've always been of the thinking that is you don't have a bevel you're just polishing a dull edge. But this stone thing has me thinking. :rofl2:

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Little of column A, little of column B. Getting the bevel set is the foundation. The rest is squeezing the most you can out of the hones at your disposal.