Going Backwards?

Fellas, I have a question and let me first tell you my set up. I am starting off setting the bevel with a Spyderco fine ceramic on a smiling blade. Everything is fine and the hairs are popping, even getting some tree topping, before moving on to the lapped 4k/8k Norton stone. The Spyderco feels so smooth and then the 4k feels like I am pushing the blade through dirt. Just a reall unsmooth backwards feel. Also, it seems as if the blade is getting less sharp. I know that the grit system grading from wetstone to ceramic is apples and oranges but does a 1200 to 2000 ceramic stone feel that much smoother than a 4k wetstone? I am thinking about tossing my wets and going with strictly ceramic.

My 302UF is thought to feel like a 12k so the 302F might be half that. And yes they do feel much smoother and produce a much finer edge than the Spyderco specs. I'm tempted to say that the Norton 8k might be similar to the 302F under the scope.

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Originally Posted by Aerdvaark

My 302UF is thought to feel like a 12k so the 302F might be half that. And yes they do feel much smoother and produce a much finer edge than the Spyderco specs. I'm tempted to say that the Norton 8k might be similar to the 302F under the scope.

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Did you lap the 4K? Sometimes you have to lap up to a quarter inch of the Norton 4K side of a 4K/8K combo to get down to smoother substrate. I lapped that much off mine - and it was better but eventually I ended up getting a 3K Naniwa and skipping the 4K portion of my 4/8 combo. Just didn't like the feel. I've read here that the stand alone 4Ks don't have that problem.

Adam

Yes, that did work for me.:beer1:

I cannot help with your situation specifically, however when going from a Chosera 1K to a Norton 4K and then from the 4to the 8K I do find that when I start on a hone it feels gritty and rough and then becomes smooth and slick. That is the edge that feels that way not the hone. As the edge refines to match the higher grit it feels smooth again. How does it feel after you have done quite a few laps on your hopefully lapped Norton 4K?

Thanks for the feedback. The 4K does smooth out after a bit but, as I said before, the blade actually feels duller. I will lap it more and see if that helps. I did lap it flat, and continue to, but I know for sure I have not come close to taking a quarter inch off. It is a lot smoother than how it came but maybe I should keep going.

Well are you using a loupe. There are other reason that something might feel sharp. A toothy edge for example can feel very sharp, some can even cut a hanging hair, but they are not the kinds of edges that we want for shaving. 1/4" is a lot to lap away. I have never had a 4K that required that much lapping, I am only on my second one, and it is part of a 4/8 combo. A 30x loupe and a meet will change you honing forever

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Originally Posted by Aerdvaark

My 302UF is thought to feel like a 12k so the 302F might be half that. And yes they do feel much smoother and produce a much finer edge than the Spyderco specs. I'm tempted to say that the Norton 8k might be similar to the 302F under the scope.

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Hang on! Are you saying that a Spydeco fine ceramic stone is around 6k grit? Everything I have seen indicates that it is around 1k to 1.2k? If what you speak is true! my stone progression should actually start with the Norton 4K, then the Spyderco fine, and then back to the Norton 8k?

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Originally Posted by RezDog

Well are you using a loupe. There are other reason that something might feel sharp. A toothy edge for example can feel very sharp, some can even cut a hanging hair, but they are not the kinds of edges that we want for shaving. 1/4" is a lot to lap away. I have never had a 4K that required that much lapping, I am only on my second one, and it is part of a 4/8 combo. A 30x loupe and a meet will change you honing forever

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Yup....a loupe is definitely on the wish list. It's hard to describe the type of edge I am getting. The razor is an old quarter hollow that feels crisp when it is cutting hair, a bit like what a full hollow feels like but not quite. Terrible description, I know. The shave is decent. If what Aerdvaark is saying about the Spyderco being around a 6k grit then that is a game changer. Imagine what kind of edge you would get from starting at 6k, going to 4K, and then finishing with an 8k. I do finish with a green paste on a strop.

1/4" is almost half the Norton 4K - please don't do that! lol, that's a LOT of good stone. I think that rough skin can be between 1/16 and 1/8" usually closer to the former than the latter.

The norton 4K does have a gritty feedback. That just lets you know it's removing metal. Don't underestimate the little fellow. With a light touch you can get a pretty good polish from him.

And don't fret over hair tests, they can be misleading. When you come off a 1K or 2K hone, you also have a pretty toothy edge. Might be able to snap hair pretty easily, but shaving with it is liable to be might uncomfortable. The 4K will go a long way to straightening that out, but in the process you lose those saw teeth that are catching and shearing hair.

I'd say scope out the edge under magnification. That'll tell you better how well the hones are polishing the edge. Unless you've burnished your 2K ceramic hone, there's almost no way it should be making a finer edge than a 4K hone.

In the beginig a loupe is the only sure fire way to ensure your bevel is perfectly formed to a perfect apex from tip to heel. Also keep your eye out for near by meets and members near by. It is seriously easier to learn hands on in person. I'm sure there must be experienced members near you, it's a small state and I think there are a lot of members in it.

Yup, don’t go by feel, look at the stria and more importantly, the edge.

I have read the fine Spyderco is about 2-4k and some say 3 microns. But how it feels does not matter, what it does to the edge matters.

First you have to look at it. If you are honing without magnification, you are honing blind. You can buy a decent loupe for as little as $2.

As said the same goes for your 4k, don’t grind off a bunch until you look at the bevel and edge it is leaving.

You can also buy a King 1k for $20 and remove all doubt.

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Originally Posted by Blamo

Hang on! Are you saying that a Spydeco fine ceramic stone is around 6k grit? Everything I have seen indicates that it is around 1k to 1.2k? If what you speak is true! my stone progression should actually start with the Norton 4K, then the Spyderco fine, and then back to the Norton 8k?

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That's kinda what I've been seeing reported on the web. Not exactly, but around those numbers. My 302UF is rated at 2k, nothing could be further from the truth, depending on how your rating it, stria is more equivalent to a translucent Arkansas under my scope. And what's that rated at? 20k+?

I rate my Translucent as sharp as hell.

Still need testing to see where it sits relative to my 12K. But, since my 12K is a ceramic Kuromaku, that could change depending on how that stone is surfaced. I haven't messed with it to see if polishing the 12K changes it's performance.

That's neither here nor there though. Sounds like the Spyderco hones fall into the same category Swaty type barber hones do. Coarse cutting material in a very hard binder that allows them to cut finer than the grit composition might lead one to expect at first glance. Particularly if it's well broken in.

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Originally Posted by Marshal

1/4" is almost half the Norton 4K - please don't do that! lol, that's a LOT of good stone. I think that rough skin can be between 1/16 and 1/8" usually closer to the former than the latter.
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Sorry about that - I did mean to write 1/8 not 1/4. In fact Lynn actually recommends lapping off about 1/8 if it needs it in his videos. Some might not need it. Mine definitely needed it and it still didn't come out to my liking.

Adam

I figured it was just one of those weird fractional foibles. I find myself having to revert back to that same video sometimes because I have a hard time recalling whether it's 1/4 or 1/8.

Ok. First off, thanks for all the input. I just wanted to post an update. After all of your replys and research concerning this whole confusing grit rating, I decided to re hone the razor starting off with an 800g Suehiro wet stone, 4K Norton, then on to the Spyderco fine ceramic, finishing up with an 8k Norton. 10 lapse of the green stuff and then 30 on the cloth and 50 on the strop. Dare I say BBS? My wife just told me to stop stroking my face.

Very nice results. I think the Spyderco just found its proper place in my stone lineup. In fact, I have a Spyderco Ultra Fine in the mail and plan on using that as a finisher. Oh yeah...I also have a loupe on the way. Thanks again.

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Originally Posted by Marshal

I figured it was just one of those weird fractional foibles. I find myself having to revert back to that same video sometimes because I have a hard time recalling whether it's 1/4 or 1/8.

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10/8 people have trouble with fractions.

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Originally Posted by Marshal

I rate my Translucent as sharp as hell.

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Could not agree more. :rock: