Using a pen as a sharpness guide

I have a Thiers-Issard 6/8 Spartacus razor. It is a full hollow and was delivered "shave ready". I have a 3" Norton 4k/8k stone and when the razor was bought I checked the bevel and to me I saw no need to start honing on the 4K.

With no tape on the spine I run a blue Sharpie pen across the edge and 1/16 wide either side. Light honing on the 8K quickly removed the ink evenly across the length and evenly on both sides.

I then leather stropped around twenty trips.

As this is my first straight razor I was not sure what to expect regarding the shave experience. My first shave took 40 minutes even although I had watched numerous YouTube head shot videos. I tried to maintain the 30 deg angle which was difficult as I have very loose skin around my chin that I cannot stretch enough to make it taught.

Since then I have had around twenty shaves stropping between each one. Not being satisfied with the dragging experience I have twice re-honed on the 8K again using the Sharpie pen. I have also tried chromium oxide on the linen strap stropping 15 times then finishing off with 20 on the leather.

Yesterday my shave was terrible with the blade dragging both with and against the growth direction.

Obviously I am inexperienced in both honing, stropping and shaving but I'm determined to improve. I recently had a spine operation (my back, not the razor spine :) ) and was forced to return to using Mach3 razor. Shaving with Mach3 is a most enjoyable and quick experience. Now that I'm back using the SR, I need help to fix the dragging.

In simple terms, is removing the edge ink evenly on both sides using an 8K stone not enough to ensure a good shave?

Ian

In short, all you know about honing a knife - forget.

Yes just taking the ink off is not enough. You can use it to help with the bevel setting and to ensure that you are even in you honing strokes but there is much more to a razor than that

You will be looking for signs of how the edge is progressing during each stage in the progression.

Bevel set:
Is it popping arm hair. How does it feel during the thumb pad test. Etc. most important before progressing - is the bevel truely set?

During the progression how is it doing? Is its ability to cut getting better or worse? Is the previous Stria being removed

Finishing stone:
How does it shave? That is the most important question. And there are other tests you can do but the shave test is you most important. If you can't shave comfortably off a 8k then your razor is not finished or you may need to go back a step or two in progression.

With knives we try for how sharp. With razors we try for how well it cuts and how smooth.

More than you EVER wanted to know about honing with a Norton 4/8 can be found right here

The best part of the JaNorton thread is it chronicles experiences from Experts, Beginners, and everyone in between

Enjoy the read and ask questions


http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...on-2012-a.html


Edit: You have a 3" 4/8 is that 3" wide by 8" long ????

Thanks for your replies. Here is a x200 image of the edge. I understand and agree with the comment that it is how the blade shaves that matters. However I cannot understand why my edge in this image (the other side is to my eye the same) drags.
Attachment 263526


Ian

Thanks, I had already read that thread but in a different forum. It was pleasing to read so many saying that they found using only the 8K shave satisfactory.

Ian

That image doesn't show wether the two bevels meet to form an actual edge. Your first post indicates that you made the assumption that the bevel was set based on observation and that you thought that merely removing ink from the bevels would hone the edge. You shave with the edge, not the bevels - and you must begin by examining the edge. Read the thread you have been directed to and start with the assumption that your bevel is not set. Trying to learn to shave while learning to hone at the same time only increases the number of variables you are dealing with while reducing your chances of success. As a beginner, you should not be making any assumptions at all.

Where are you located? There may be a member in your area that can help mentor you. The razor may not have been truly shave ready and your lack of honeing experience did not help. I live in Pompano Beach Florida. If you are close or want to pay shipping I can hone it and ship it back first class mail at your cost for shipping only. If interested PM me and I will give you my mailing address.
Leonard

Yes my Norton is 3"x8"x1" why the ?????
Ian

Because there are some cut down Norton's that are about useless for actual honing and only good for touch ups

Leonard, thanks for your offer but I'll keep studying and practicing.
Ian ( in Scotland )

Honing at this level really is quite simple

The bevel MUST meet and be sharp enough to shave, then you refine it for feel (Smooth)

If the razor is tuggy it means that the bevel is not fully set or you overhoned it and destroyed the edge but your pic doesn't show that ...

You must get a positive bevel test that works for you

The
TNT
TPT
AHT
Whatever is a 100% go/no go for you, I can't tell you which one, all I can say is that you have to figure it out by trying them all

Again all this is in the JaNorton thread in step by step accounts.. I understand you read it on another forum but obviously either their copy of the exercise was lacking, or the importance of the bevel set did not register with you


Bevel bevel bevel 90% of honing is in the bevel... Really


ps: The TI's are honed with a lifted spine on a Platen then refined they are not shave ready to most all of our standards, I highly recommend using 1 layer of tape until you dial it in to your standards and then decide whether to use tape after that

All you said is good advice. That said perhaps you would help me understand why the extreme tip of both sides have the ink removed after the lightest of edge-forward passes?
Ian

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beemer

All you said is good advice. That said perhaps you would help me understand why the extreme tip of both sides have the ink removed after the lightest of edge-forward passes?
Ian

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Because you may have this \_/ and not this \/. The ink can be removed on both but only the later shaves well. The apex of the first is still not meeting even though the ink is being removed from what you can tell. And with the first you cannot easily tell if you have a flat apex even with a microscope

or looking down at the very apex you might have this

________ ____ _____ _______

The bevel can be set at some spots and not others, this is a very common issue I see when teaching at the meets..

We are talking at a sub Micron level so feel is often times more accurate than sight :)

This can be seen by using a Bright light and looking for "Blunting" or "Sparkles"

This is a good vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZYFsOP7rBc

Man Glen, could you have found a shorter thread? I was going to read it but that would take me days.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rlmnshvstr8

Because you may have this \_/ and not this \/. The ink can be removed on both but only the later shaves well. The apex of the first is still not meeting even though the ink is being removed from what you can tell. And with the first you cannot easily tell if you have a flat apex even with a microscope

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Small correction - if you have a loupe, you can turn the blade edge up and look straight down at the apex. You shouldn't be able to see anything but the thinnest of thin lines where the edges come together. Any sort of silvery white sheen or sparkliness means you have too much \_/ and not enough \/

In his magnified photo I do see a little white sheen toward the edge too. Sometimes that's just artifact, other's it's an indicator that there's light trying to reflect off the flat surface where the edges aren't quite meeting.

Add a layer or 2 of tape, and I'd suggest using the 4K to clean it up. Like so:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Edit: Before I forget, remember to change the tape often. Learned that the hard way. It abrades quicker than I expected, and that will allow the edge to lift off the hone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gasman

Man Glen, could you have found a shorter thread? I was going to read it but that would take me days.

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Yeah the JaNorton thread is packed with info,, which was actually the object of doing it :)

When I am working on a bevel I use my 30x lighted loupe to look straight down on the apex. If I see any "blunt spots" which I see as light reflecting I keep going. Once I see a grey line I try the thumbnail test and that has been pretty successful. I used to use a cherry tomato but it is too imprecise. I was finding that a toothy edge fooled me into thinking the bevel was set.

If the bevel is not well set it doesn't matter how much you polish and refine. The bevel set IS the edge :) so for me I was moving up my progression too quickly. So from the side the bevel looked awesome and beautiful but the razor wouldn't shave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beemer

Leonard, thanks for your offer but I'll keep studying and practicing.
Ian ( in Scotland )

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Three things:
1) Welcome to SRP!
2) What part of Scotland? I spent six fantastic years in St Andrews and miss it (and the rest of the country) terribly. Please have a pint of heavy for me. :)
3) Have you considered sending it out to be pro honed at least once? Without that, you're aiming for a target you can't yet see. But having experienced a truly shave-ready edge, you'll know what you are trying to achieve. In my 7 or so years of straight shaving, I've sent a razor to be honed exactly one time, and it was a revelation. It taught me not only how poor my own previous honing efforts were, it also let mw know what was possible. That, and making use of the resources here on SRP, made all the difference in the world.

Good luck! :tu

i don't get it, if it was shave ready why was you going straight to the hones before you even know how to shave? learn to shave and strop, until then you don't even have a clue if its shave ready. do yourself a favor and slow down, and learn the process. not to mention honing a straight razor takes some experience, its not like a knife where any body can sharpen one. Tc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tcrideshd

i don't get it, if it was shave ready why was you going straight to the hones before you even know how to shave? learn to shave and strop, until then you don't even have a clue if its shave ready. do yourself a favor and slow down, and learn the process. not to mention honing a straight razor takes some experience, its not like a knife where any body can sharpen one. Tc

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TC,

It was Thiers-Issard that stated it was shave ready and I did have several shaves before the Norton arrived in the mail. You are quite right that I have little patience. I'm like that with a lot of tasks that involve new skills. Last year I bought a new very expensive piano and learned to tune it myself. This was despite several professional tuners telling me that I should not attempt it. Another impulse was to take a four day motorcycle course, pass the test, on a bitter February 2000 day take a 200 mile train ride to buy what you see in the photo and ride it home and then for 12 years.

So here I am with a $350 razor (£250 uk) and risking ruining it, but maybe not 😉

Attachment 263591

Ian

As said, the marker ink test is not a test of sharpness, or that the bevels are meeting. It will only tell you, if you are honing to the edge.

If you take your photo and open in a photo editor and magnify 200x you will see, the edge is fuzzy and likely, not meeting. You can see it in your pic, if you know what to look for.

So, a couple thing first, what are you stropping on?

Did you lap the Norton’s flat? What with?

Which brand of Chrome Oxide are you using and what is it pasted on? Not all “Chrome Oxide” is pure or razor quality. If it is not pure, it will leave an edge exactly like you have.

What are you taking your bevel pics with? Nice pic, by the way, and nice even stria pattern.

You can get nice shaving edge with a Norton 8k and Chrome Oxide, but it will take some work and you will need to master or at least learn to strop better. A razor edge is very thin and fragile, we cannot see it until at lease 1000X.

Stropping while not really that difficult, most folks, over think it, it can take some time to master.

Look at the Toxic sharpening video and make sure the bevels are meeting fully as show in the video, then strop on Chrome Oxide using light pressure, keep the spine on the strop, stop and flip… and go slow, with little pressure.

A single swipe on a strop can easily ruin a razor edge.

And tape the spine, to protect it until you learn to hone. New honers often cause irreparable damage to the spine, tape at the least will prevent that.

In your case, you are probably very close, a single layer of tape and 10-15 laps will probably get your bevels meeting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

As said, the marker ink test is not a test of sharpness, or that the bevels are meeting. It will only tell you, if you are honing to the edge.

If you take your photo and open in a photo editor and magnify 200x you will see, the edge is fuzzy and likely, not meeting. You can see it in your pic, if you know what to look for.

So, a couple thing first, what are you stropping on?

Did you lap the Norton’s flat? What with?

Which brand of Chrome Oxide are you using and what is it pasted on? Not all “Chrome Oxide” is pure or razor quality. If it is not pure, it will leave an edge exactly like you have.

What are you taking your bevel pics with? Nice pic, by the way, and nice even stria pattern.

You can get nice shaving edge with a Norton 8k and Chrome Oxide, but it will take some work and you will need to master or at least learn to strop better. A razor edge is very thin and fragile, we cannot see it until at lease 1000X.

Stropping while not really that difficult, most folks, over think it, it can take some time to master.

Look at the Toxic sharpening video and make sure the bevels are meeting fully as show in the video, then strop on Chrome Oxide using light pressure, keep the spine on the strop, stop and flip… and go slow, with little pressure.

A single swipe on a strop can easily ruin a razor edge.

And tape the spine, to protect it until you learn to hone. New honers often cause irreparable damage to the spine, tape at the least will pirevent that.

In your case, you are probably very close, a single layer of tape and 10-15 laps will probably get your bevels meeting.

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Hi Euclid440,

Interesting forum name so I'll take a guess. I live in Scotland a few miles where Euclid monster machines were built. See Explore The History Of Terex Trucks

Re your questions:

Strop is a USA made "Mountain Mike" 3" hanging double leather/linen
Paste is by Dovo Germany
Norton is flattened using pencil lattice and wetted 400grit silicon dioxide paper mounted on plate glass.
x200 photo taken using Veho digital microscope with led illumination (bad for reflections)
This razor came with significant honing marks on the spine so using tape seemed unnecessary. I do not think that Thiers-Issard France tape when factory honing.

I'm going to spend time looking at the edge as it faces me using a bright light and loupe as I have been advised. Thanks for your reply,

Ian

Sounds like you are properly geared up.

While the tape will protect the spine from scratches and wear, for new honers it is recommended, because… as a new honer you will, typically, do way more laps and use more pressure, than needed, until you figure out honing.

Once you remove metal from the spine, you can never put it back. A simple piece of tape will prevent that and at least the edge geometry will remain the same.

Then once you master honing, and are able to produce a shaveable edge in a few light strokes, wear is not an issue.


That and as I said earlier, you are probably very close to a shaving edge, a single layer of tape and 10 or so light laps on a freshly lapped 8k hone will bring the bevels together nicely and some Chrome Oxide will smooth out the edge.

I am not sure about Dovo green paste so for now leave it out of the equation. Some “Green Paste” contains other abrasives, which is why they call it Green Paste and not Chromium Oxide.

Tape and hone on the 8k. Look at the edge before and after the 8k, strop on linen15-20 laps and leather 15-20 laps and look at the edge again. That should get you there.

Then try the Green Paste, look at the edge and see if it I improved.

The Mountain Man strop is a nice strop.

You may want to invest in a diamond plate in the 300-400 grit range for lapping and resurfacing the stone face. I give my stones a quick lap before use, and before I lay my final finish laps. Just a few quick swipes.

Make sure the edges of the stone are chamfered and the final laps are done parallel to the edge and or rounded. A ragged corner of a stone, will destroy an edge and cause you fits, till you figure it out.

You can do it with Wet & Dry but a diamond plate is quicker and easier, DMT, Easy Lap, Chef Knifes to Go or Atoma, they all work. And run from 30 to 80 dollars here in the US.

Here is a good thread where a new honer takes an edge from Ebay beater to shave ready, post 42, page 9, Photos 4 & 5 (upper right hand corner) show and edge that is close, (not fully set). Post 51, page 11, first photo, shows a fully set bevel, as demonstrated in the Toxic video.

Good photos of what to look for.

Second Try at Honing.

Dovo pastes


"Green Sharpening Paste is the coarsest with a particle size
averaging 5-8 microns and should be used on a very dull edge.

Red Sharpening Paste is less coarse with a particle size of 2-4
microns and will refresh a mildly dull edge.

Black Sharpening paste is the most fine at around 1 -2 microns

Yellow Paste has no sharpening qualities and is used as a leather
strop conditioner on your "everyday use" strop.

White Paste is used as an edge polish on the LINEN STROP ONLY!"



Keeping in mind that the Dovo pastes are actually rather soft/mild cutters so the micron sizes are only part of the equation

Interesting. I didn't realize Dovo pastes had material that coarse in them. Still sounds like green wouldn't be an improvement over 8k and red would be a side grade, or very slight upgrade.

Then again, I imagine it would sink a bit into a fabric strop so depending on the material it's strewn across results may vary.

Meh, I'll stick with Chrome Oxide, CBN, and FeOx and be happy.