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I've never been a huge fan of the Norton, seldom having a need for them. I use Eschers, Thuringens and Coticules (and a Tam O'Shanter) for finishing and for the few tiny nicks I use a Kimberly Special barber hone with a circular honing motion.
If I wanted to replace the barber hone with a 4K or so natural what would one choose? The Kimberly is reasonably fast at this task so I am a bit spoiled by that and may not want a really slow stone.
Tony
I've often wondered myself about natural alternatives for the lower grits.
Josh has said that if you use the coticule with generous slurry and fair amount of pressure it removes a surprising amount of steel. He's even used a progression beginning with yellow w/pressure&slurry, then blue belgian, then back to yellow without pressure and no slurry.
A while back I bought a big hard white Ark thinking it could serve this purpose. I was surprise at how sharp an edge you could get with it – after all it's rated at 1200 – but for nick removal or bevel creation I'd have to say it's pretty useless. Now I use it pretty much exclusively for lapping my other stones, since it's harder than any of them and stays flat.
The slurry thing I got from LX_Emergency and Bruno. Alex posted a video a while back where he hones an eBay razor with just a coticule...
I wouldn't want to take out a sizeable nick this way, though. The slurry does cut quickly--it gets black in a hurry. But I'm not a big fan of using lots of pressure at any point in the honing process, and nick removal on these finer hones does seem to require some decent pressure. :shrug: Not to mention a few hours...
The Belgian blue is supposed to be 6K, but it cuts slower than the yellow with slurry. My experience with natural hones ends here. :)
Josh
You could try the soft grey Arkansas Tony. I'm in the same camp as you with the Kimberly and kimberly special for fast honing. I worked an Ebay special to standard on a DMT for speed the other night. It was fast and accurate even after I took out the frown with rubbing it's edge along the DMT hone. Recreated the bevel in just a few strokes with minimal pressure.
Back to the soft grey Arkansas. I used a fellow boatbuilders soft grey while at his yard to back dress a selection of new chisels. It cut fast and behaved more like a water hone than an oil stone. I susspect it could be used with water or lather. Worth a try?
PuFF
I was going to suggest some Arkansas myself, but I am not familiar with them - just from what I have heard. Puff beat me to it, plus he has actually done it :D
Anyway, from my experience - I agree with Josh on both counts:
- Yes, the coticule can be used to remove chips and stuff with slurry and high pressure (it doesn't have to take hours)
- More importantly - as Josh, I would not be very enthusiastic about it. I find I need more pressure than I like, and it's bad on both wedges and hollows. It is hard to apply high and even pressure for the whole blade, and you often end up some uneven result. Sure it can be honed to shave but looks bad and compensating / fixing it is more trouble than I want...
Cheers
Ivo
Has anyone tried using a piece of pool table slate or the Chinese 12K stone with a slurry made from pumice stone powder yet? The kind they use in woodworking? :shrug:
What did they use in the past for grinding razors?
Sand stone? Pumice? Slate? One of those round mill like stones driven by hand?
Round stones would be a problem as the angle would change depending on the diameter of the stone (which might have changed by the time you see the sharpener again because of all the other knives he's sharpened in the meantime).
The razor might not be hollow enough to fit on the stone, unless you could get the razor on the face/side of the stone.
What about an Aoto? Maybe a bit rough for you? Some type of nagura?
Honing is the process which takes a dull edge to a sharp edge. It should not take hours to accomplish that and if it does, the wrong stones are being used. If the razor is really dull and you're not getting results from a belgian blue or a norton 4k, drop back to a 1200 like the DMT8E which will quickly re-set the edge. Then move to a 4000 stone, an 8000 stone, and then strop.
I always recommend people experiment with different stones to see what works well with their particular razor. Razors differ and react differently depending on their particular steel type and heat treatment. Steel can vary from lot to lot so that's not a variable that can be eliminated from consideration and heat treating likewise varies in its results.
I have also come to believe that some folks just resonate better with natural stones than they do with artificial stones. Nothing necessarily mystical about that but there is a difference, in general, with the "feel" between man-made stones and natural stones.
Arkansas stones. I have used arkansas stones for about 40 years and my collection is considerable with many sizes and shapes and all grades. I've actually taken the family to Hot Springs, Arkansas to visit the quarries and rock shops (now they won't go anywhere with me unless they research it first . . . ) and talk to the people who make the stones and take the novaculite out of the ground.
I don't like Arkansas stones for straight razor honing. I think they're not optimal for that particular job.
As many of you know, I speak with lots of folks extensively, every week, about honing razors and other blades. This has been going on for about 5 years now. A few of those folks are barbers who have been shaving folks for many years - 52 years in one case! Those folks use coticules because that's what they've always used and they don't want to really change because they know that's what works for them. Does that mean other stones won't work? No. They will, but you have to experiment and learn what they do by using observation and magnification and shaving with the razors.
From a consistency standpoint, you can't beat the Norton 4K/8K and for many years that is the only stone I honed razors with and it worked very well. Like anything else, it takes practice and some razors are simply easier to hone than others. I am using the Escher stone almost exclusively now both with slurry and without to finish the razors I hone and it has proven to be the best natural stone for me. I have been honing close to 50 razors a week and need to have equipment I can rely on. I have tried the the Coticule, Blue Belgium, Thuringer, Japanese Awase, Chinese 12K, Shapton Pro, the Tam and about 50 different barber type hones and out of these, the only one I really will go to when using another finishing stone is the Coticule. Not that the other stones are bad, but they simple don't work with the reliability I need. As mentioned, the main problem with the natural stones is that they are very slow cutters. So, if you want to spend hours and hours taking out a nick or setting a bevel, the naturals will eventually work for you. Always open to trying new stones and other media as well as new techniques. Howard even had an 8K Diamond hone a while back and it was pretty cool.
Have fun,
Lynn
Tony,
Norton rates the Hard Translucent Arkansas stones they sell as 4K grit. These are very slow cutters, however.
Thanks for all the advice guys. Since I hate slow stones and the Kimberly Special is working for me I'll stick with a few barber hones for the heavy work.
Tony
Ever tried these?
Gränsfors Bruks AB - Axe Stone
Have you considered the Scottish stone called the Dalmore Blue?
From what I've been able to find, the translucent Arkansas is rated at 8000. It's hard to compare to other stones because of the different rating methods used for oilstones and waterstones. Supposedly the translucent, at 8000, is about the equivalent of a 10000 or 12000 waterstone; depends on who you talk to. I get an excellent edge with the translucent ark. Slow, yeah, but, IMO, safer. Definitely not for major rehoning, only for finishing. Maybe, someday, I'll spring for the money and have one of the pros here put the finest edge they can on my razors...maybe:)Quote:
Originally Posted by fccexpert
I'm still thinking about an extra fine waterstone; they're not that much more expensive than my Norton translucent.