Diamond plate vs. tomo nagura

Ok guys I am sure this subject has been beat pretty hard but looking for your input on using a diamond plate vs a tomo for slurry generation, I have bee using an Atoma 1200 for the past few years for slurry genration on my JNATS over a tomo and have been super pleased with the edges but the more I read the more I here that a tomo over time will yield a better edge as it smoothes the base stone but this apparently takes time, so with that said who has tested both a lot and what were your results comparing the two edges

You will get a "Different" stria pattern and perhaps a different feel to the shave but only you can decide if that difference feels better on your face :)

I put little merit in the whole Base stone smoothness theory when honing on relatively "Soft Waterstones"

I use and like a tomo to finish. There are advantages and disadvantages to everything though.

Advantages are finer initial slurry particles, you can choose a different stone with possibly complimentary characteristics (hardness, fineness), it does smooth the base stone (I can see scratches from an Atoma 1200 unless it's extremely worn).

Disadvantages are that like good jnat razor hones, a good tomo is not as common as you might think. Many 'store bought' are too hard or too soft, or just not fine enough for me. Most of my best have been cut from good hones with some issues. It usually takes longer to raise a slurry if the hardness is similar to a hard razor hone, and it needs to be used carefully to keep the hone flat as opposed to using a full diamond plate.

Cheers, Steve

I second what Steve said, with the additional observation that a diamond plate will IMO erode your base stone faster. I use tomo only.

Will:
As you know I like and use tomo almost exclusively to finish with, I do some of my testing of a new stone using diamond plate to slurry it so I can get a read on the speed (cutting ability) and how fine the base stone is etc.
I agree with Steve it's not so easy to get good Tomo to work with and it takes time to test them. Cutting them from a known good stone is for me the most consistent method of obtaining them.

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Originally Posted by FranfC

Will:
As you know I like and use tomo almost exclusively to finish with, I do some of my testing of a new stone using diamond plate to slurry it so I can get a read on the speed (cutting ability) and how fine the base stone is etc.
I agree with Steve it's not so easy to get good Tomo to work with and it takes time to test them. Cutting them from a known good stone is for me the most consistent method of obtaining them.

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I agree with this, and usually use Tomo, but I like to test all with the DN. In doing so I have found two of my hardest stones give me a better edge with the DN. I can get different nice edges with tomo on these stones, but the Tomo slurry is all I usually end up with since these stones are so hard. So in order to get the true flavor of these two stones I need to use the DN for final finish. Ultimately I find a tomo that allows a mix of base and tomo slurry to yield some of my best edges. This will also boil down to speed and preferences. If you like the final edge that is all that matters. Alex got me to try his method and it works. While I liked the tomo a bit better, but sometimes mix it up and do both. For me though it truly depends on the base stone I am working with. Also tomo are just plain fun.

I too find that edges are slightly more comfortable - at least with with quite hard stones - on my face with Tomo rather than diamond plate slurry. Another drawback with Tomo slurry is that cutting speed is pretty significantly reduced - at least on the harder stones. Softer stones it doesn't seem to make much difference since a considerable amount of slurry comes up very quickly and easily with those. With Tomo slurry on a hard stone it's a good idea to go up a bit further in a grit progression before going to the finisher. I usually go with 5k-8k depending on the razor. Using diamond plate generated slurry I usually go to either 2k or 5k before hitting the finisher.

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Originally Posted by Jnatcat

I have bee using an Atoma 1200 for the past few years for slurry genration on my JNATS over a tomo and have been super pleased with the edges.

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I think you answered your own question in that sentence. If you are super pleased, you are super pleased. You appear to have some sort of tomo (and like every Jnat, every tomo is different as it's just a small piece of natural hone material, unlike the coarser gritted, yet softer bound, nagura used for preliminary honing), and you ended up going in the diamond nagura direction, as you are "super pleased" with the results.

Some Jnats respond well to DN, others don't appear to. I have two Jnats and various nagura, but no tomo nagura. I did use one jnat on the other as a tomo nagura to test, but it didn't seem to improve anything, so I stuck with the DN. The biggest problem here is that whatever conclusion someone else comes to with their Jnats and Tomo nagura, will be entirely different to the next chaps, as he's using different natural hones and tomo nagura. The only thing you can do is try with your hones and tomo nagura to see if your tomo nagura really makes it better for YOU.

Once a chap gets the hang of honing.... the differences are still there, but oh so minimal, leaving us acting like a dog, chasing it's own tail. And I say that as one who has gone into more than one tail spin. :o

Regards

Christian aka

Kaptain "Tailspin" Zero

Gents,

Thanks for all the great info, I currently have two JNAT's with several tomo's that the seller ( Alex @ Japan Stone ) matched to the JNAT's, he tests every tomo with each stone he sells, he uses a worn out Atoma 1200 plate but has also used the 1200 and followed with a tomo, there are severla sellers of JNATS that don't recommend using diamond plates as they say it scratches the finisher, these stones as we all know are and can be pretty pricey so want to take care of what i have plus get the best possible edge and i am guessing I need to do some side by side testing and finish on both types of slurry and compare the shaves on the same razor.

My normal progression is Chosera 1K if needed but most of the time i set/refresh the bevel with a 4K with slurry then 8K no slurry ( Both Shaptons ) then have been using a Atoma 1200 to generate a light slurry and work it and dilute with water as I work it and finish on just a mist of slurry and then strop.

Here are the stones I have with several tomo's

Attachment 268459

I blend both worlds. First true my jnat with 1200 Atoma, Yes scratches seen. Remove scratches with tomo. Then slurry tomo on Atoma and mist water on atoma drip onto jnat. Super flat no scratch base stone. Only tomo particles on base jnat. Works for me. I hate when tomo suctions onto jnat, I lift tomo and gouge jnat. Thus my work around, no more gouges or scratches.

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Originally Posted by ultrasoundguy2003

I blend both worlds. First true my jnat with 1200 Atoma, Yes scratches seen. Remove scratches with tomo. Then slurry tomo on Atoma and mist water on atoma drip onto jnat. Super flat no scratch base stone. Only tomo particles on base jnat. Works for me. I hate when tomo suctions onto jnat, I lift tomo and gouge jnat. Thus my work around, no more gouges or scratches.

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Think i will try this and see what happens :tu

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Originally Posted by ultrasoundguy2003

I blend both worlds. First true my jnat with 1200 Atoma, Yes scratches seen. Remove scratches with tomo. Then slurry tomo on Atoma and mist water on atoma drip onto jnat. Super flat no scratch base stone. Only tomo particles on base jnat. Works for me. I hate when tomo suctions onto jnat, I lift tomo and gouge jnat. Thus my work around, no more gouges or scratches.

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If you hold the tomo as close to the stone as you can, it will not tip and gouge the stone, at least not very easily. If you hold the tomo up high, it tips a lot easier. Don't ask me how I know this lol.

Cheers, Steve

On harder stones personally I like to slightly radius the Tomo. This makes slurry generation easier and faster and lessens the likelihood of scratches. I use a very gentle radius, maybe 1mm from high to low point across the face of the Tomo. When using the Tomo I slightly rock it along the radius while rubbing on the stone surface.

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Originally Posted by kaptain_zero

...The biggest problem here is that whatever conclusion someone else comes to with their Jnats and Tomo nagura, will be entirely different to the next chaps, as he's using different natural hones and tomo nagura. The only thing you can do is try with your hones and tomo nagura to see if your tomo nagura really makes it better for YOU...

Regards

Christian aka

Kaptain "Tailspin" Zero

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Just to throw another variable in there, I've seen different people get different results from the exact same natural stone. So your face/beard/preferences will also differ from the next person's.

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Originally Posted by eKretz

On harder stones personally I like to slightly radius the Tomo. This makes slurry generation easier and faster and lessens the likelihood of scratches. I use a very gentle radius, maybe 1mm from high to low point across the face of the Tomo. When using the Tomo I slightly rock it along the radius while rubbing on the stone surface.

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This is what I was going to suggest. The first time I got a slurry/nagura stone suctioned to a hone and gouged it, I rounded up all of mine and put a radius on them. Haven't had that issue since. I'm also much gentler, even if it does take longer to work up a suitable slurry.

While we are dealing with Nagura, like others I use a Atoma 1200 as a diamond nagura for my 3 naturals (Ozuku Asagi, Wakasa,Shobu Asagi) I have looked at Tomo and then seen the Asano nagura. I am a little wary of using them. My reason is that I bought all the jnats for use as finishing stones, so I don't want to alter it's cutting power, other than to enhance its fineness. Brings me to my question, I see on JNS they sell Koma nagura, supposedly fine, and a step past Tomo. They are not cheap either, but are they good? Does anyone see that for me, I'd like to add another step up the ladder to a better edge, so why would I buy, botan etc, when perhaps I'd get more satisfaction from a Koma, which are round $120 bucks for a stamped piece of about 130 grams? Your views gentlemen. Bob.

Much like the finishing JNats themselves, I think it really depends on the individual piece. I have used Koma that are very soft and seem a slight bit coarser and Koma that are very hard, which seem to cut finer. I think ideally I would try to match the Koma hardness with the finishing stone, but that's not always easy to do, and most sellers that I've seen don't rate Asano nagura hardness - but you can ask.

I don't think that Koma will ever be a step past a good Tomo though.

Bob, as I understand it... and I have a 3 piece set of Nagura that I use... they serve only the purpose of creating a coarser slurry to speed up honing and you in the end end up with only water, cleaning after each nagura slurry. The final slurry would be the one you raise with your Atoma 1200.... the other way of raising such a slurry is with a tomo nagura. If you cut a piece off of one of your Jnats, it could become your tomo nagura.

There is apparently plenty of bad nagura out there.... stuff with errant larger grit mixed in. Quality graded and tested nagura is more rare and quickly goes up in price, depending on size. If I understand correctly, koma is very sought after by sword polishers, thus the higher prices, but it's for polishing, not honing.

The fastest way for you to figure out if you want to try a tomo, is to create a slurry by rubbing two of your hones together. If you find that slurry better than the one you raise with the Atoma, start looking for a good tomo. I did that myself, and I'm sticking with my Atoma for raising slurry on the hones I have. Naturally, if you buy a tomo nagura, you will again have to try several to find the one that works best with YOUR hones, unless you are super lucky and the first one you buy is the one you want....

Regards

Christian aka

Kaptain "I'm NEVER that lucky" Zero

I have been playing around with several tomo's I have, even one's not matched to the stone by the seller and I just seem to get better edges with a DN 1200 slurry, maybe it's my technique or maybe the tomo's

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Originally Posted by bobski

I am a little wary of using them. My reason is that I bought all the jnats for use as finishing stones, so I don't want to alter it's cutting power, other than to enhance its fineness.

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you are not going to alter the cutting power of the stone it self, the cutting power will come from the nagura.

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Originally Posted by bobski

I see on JNS they sell Koma nagura, supposedly fine, and a step past Tomo. They are not cheap either, but are they good? Does anyone see that for me, I'd like to add another step up the ladder to a better edge, so why would I buy, botan etc, when perhaps I'd get more satisfaction from a Koma, which are round $120 bucks for a stamped piece of about 130 grams? Your views gentlemen. Bob.

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Koma is not a step past tomonagra it is the step before the tomonagura.

You can use Koma after 8k synthetic, but if you want to start lower you have to use Botan and Mejiro before that. Each beaks down differently and together they make a progression that refines the scratches on the bevels and prepares them for the tomonagura step.

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Originally Posted by eKretz

Much like the finishing JNats themselves, I think it really depends on the individual piece. I have used Koma that are very soft and seem a slight bit coarser and Koma that are very hard, which seem to cut finer. I think ideally I would try to match the Koma hardness with the finishing stone, but that's not always easy to do, and most sellers that I've seen don't rate Asano nagura hardness - but you can ask.

I don't think that Koma will ever be a step past a good Tomo though.

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A lot of the vintage koma is softer, and it is usually not as white - kind of a cream color. The modern Asano stamped stuff tends to be much harder, whiter, and finer but some of it is so hard it's difficult to use. Since I'm following it with a tomo nagura on a finisher, I'd usualy prefer the older, softer koma though I have a couple of harder white pieces that I like too.

Cheers, Steve

Is it fair to say, that, if I took my razor up to a Naniwa 10k edge, then wanted to finish the razor on one of my hard, fine jnats, that I really don't have any need for Asano nagura, as my Atoma 1200 slurry would do the job?

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Originally Posted by bobski

Is it fair to say, that, if I took my razor up to a Naniwa 10k edge, then wanted to finish the razor on one of my hard, fine jnats, that I really don't have any need for Asano nagura, as my Atoma 1200 slurry would do the job?

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Yes I think that's a fair statement. I usually hone synth to 8k, then koma and tomo. I have used a 10k Naniwa in place of the koma. IOW, synth to 10k then tomo on the finisher. The finishing slurry could be from a diamond plate or a tomo nagura.

Cheers, Steve

Thanks Steve, clears up a few things My PayPal account is safe for the time being.....