Jnat finishing ideas

Been honing since 2012 using synthetic stones. Finally five months ago bought my first jnat, an Ozuku Asagi, followed up soon by a Wakasa then a Shobu Asagi Tamamoku. I don't have any nagura, but my method is to use synthetic stones to 8k level then Atoma 1200 slurry and use one of the Japanese natural stones to finish with. (all three stones are hard, and fine particle size). Now, I've enjoyed reasonably good results with the Ozuku and a medium slurry diluted to a misty one with barely any pressure. My question is, that having done this technique with all three stones, the results are significantly better with the Shobu. I mean a markedly sharper smoother result. I have done basically the same things with the Ozuku and Wakasa, but I'm a little off the pace compared to the Shobu. So, is there a tweak I can try that might improve my results on the ozuku and Wakasa. If nagura is worth investing in, well, I'd try it, but at present I am enjoying the Shobu with DN. (there are photos of the hones in the Hones section). I would like to hear some opinions/options?

Maybe more/less time on the other stones &/or progress to water only

I would try taking the good edge you can get off the shoubu then using the other naturals to see how change that edge.

Your method is a carbon copy of mine but I pretty much get the same edge from all the stones I have so i have started playing around with a few different tomo naguras and thickness/thiness of slurries, I have gotten edges that are very keen but also very harsh from being to sharp or toothy

Yes, try clear water finishing, 20 x-strokes or so.

Cheers, Steve

I've been away for a few days, but I'll back to the stones tomorrow. Now I am thankful for your input gentlemen, and there are a couple of things I'd like to throw out there for consideration. I watched a few of Keith Johnson's videos, and he uses his tomo nagura, to dress his base stone, in that, the tomo is worked to all areas of the hone, and in his video, after what could be called slurry creation, he washes the slurry off and re-does the exercise. This leads me to ask, that the fineness of the tomo, it's affect on the surface of the stone. This is as opposed to me creating a slurry with the Atoma 1200. Am I creating a rough, or disrupted surface to actually make the honing surface a little less than smooth, reflective even. So would that perhaps make a difference? I was thinking of using the Atoma 1200 on the Ozuku to create a slurry to reserve. Then use one of my other two jnats as a tomo and rub the Ozuku with say the Wakasa, then if the slurry from that exercise isn't sufficient, then use the slurry I reserved from the first use of the Atoma. adding it to the 'burnished' smooth surface of the Ozuku? Would honing on a significantly polished surface as described make some difference? I intend to try that. What I am also considering, is the fact that the edges I have achieved and shaved with off the Ozuku and Wakasa were not sub standard, they just weren't as good as the Shobu, those other two hones gave a perfectly serviceable shave, so maybe I am edge chasing a bit. Could it perhaps be that in fact the Shobu is a better stone than first imagined. It was described when bought as being 1104 grams Shobu Asagi Karasu Tamamoku. This mouthful of Japanese descriptors isn't something I am seeking to disprove or over-rate, I'm accepting it as it is. I might have been very fortunate to land a stone that is exceptional. The shaves were really, damn good, coming from someone who generally shaves off a Gok 20.
Maybe I'm seeing shadows here and the fact may simply be that I have a lot to learn about how to assess and use each individual stone. I guess to describe the shobu, I'd say it's an easy task to put an edge on a razor with it. Dumb luck to land a really good stone? I think there is some truth to it. I have a couple of similar razors, a couple of Dovo 6/8's with Shobu edges and I'll try the various options.

I think you are just seeing a difference in the hone quality for razors. Truly good razor jnats, ones that can give you that 'wow!' edge, smoothness along with keeness and that the shaves last a long time, aren't maybe as common as people believe. You can almost always get a good jnat to shave pretty well, even ones I'd call knife hones, but there's no doubt in my mind that a top-tier razor hone stands out (on razors of course).

I've always believed that hones need to be surfaced sort of according to their fineness. If you don't think the surface finish has an effect, just ask the Arkansas folks. I believe that 'Arkansas effect' exists on all hones, but most of them, like synthetics are soft enough that a coarse finish doesn't last too long. I could never understand surfacing an 8k+ synth or a fine jnat finisher with a 400 grit plate/brown biscuit or even a 1200 Atoma, though I still use both for coarser stones 1k and under.

To clean my fine synths (2k up) I use a King 8k 'nagura'. Can My fingers tell the difference in the hone surface finish versus the Naniwa brown biscuit? Absolutely. Can the razor tell the difference? Everyone has an opinion but mine is that yes it can, at least until the surface finish settles down.

When I lap a fine jnat or synth finisher, I use w/d paper on plate glass through 2k grit. Then I raise a slurry with a tomo and use a 'donor' razor to further burnish the surface though if the 2k paper was worn it likely makes little difference. I can very much tell the difference in this surface finish versus even a well worn Atoma 1200. I polished and burnished my G20k carefully, mindful that this stone is so hard that surface roughness would likely persist for some number of razor finishings.

Try it and see what you think. It isn't hard or time consuming to do, and let us know what you think. How fine to finish lap a hone isn't a topic that's discussed that often other than the Arkansas stones..

Cheers, Steve

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Originally Posted by Steve56

I've always believed that hones need to be surfaced sort of according to their fineness. If you don't think the surface finish has an effect, just ask the Arkansas folks. I believe that 'Arkansas effect' exists on all hones, but most of them, like synthetics are soft enough that a coarse finish doesn't last too long.

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The thing with Arks is that they're not particularly fine in the first place & need that burnishing whereas Jnats can be very fine.
Also Arks are not used with slurry, as a rule. Possibly slurry fills any micro gaps from lapping with a worn diamond plate.

Steve

When you polish/burnish your Jnats do you just use water to finish razors or still use a nagura progression or do you have different Jnats to do lower end work?

OK, I took a razor that had been finished on the Shobu on a diminishing slurry ending it in a misty slight slurry, which I had noted was a nice comfortable shave. I took that razor, tested it with a sharpie just to be certain of things, and all was right, geometry wise, and I couldn't find any thing wrong with it. A Dovo Le Forme 6/8. I decided I would just take the haze off the edge by giving it 20 or so light strokes on a Naniwa 10k, I took the Ozuku Asagi and I used the Wakasa a particle size 9 stone and I used it as a Tomo. All that did was perhaps make the surface of the Ozuku slightly smoother, no slurry whatsoever was raised. These are hard stones. I then raised a slurry on the back side of the Ozuku (It's double sided) I used that slurry on the smoothed main surface. I then ran it as I have done, diluting the slurry with light pressure, however when I got to a misty slurry using hardly any pressure, I rinsed the stone and razor under water and honed on the water only for three or four minutes. I stropped and shaved after this. The result was again a good edge, but not outstanding. So was it, or is it the stone, the user? One thing I was more conscious of was to use even lighter pressure if it is possible. So if the Shobu edge was a number out of 10, and a 10 is , say a Gok 20 edge and 6 laps on a crox strop (Simply for comparisons sake) then the Shobu was a 9/10. Now if I rated todays Ozuku edge on that scale it was an 8/10. Now 8/10 is good, and we are talking sharpness and comfort, not absolute straight from the 20k hone to the bathroom stuff. There isn't anything really bad or wrong about the Ozuku edge, it has improved, but it confirms, at least in my mind, that I have a nice stone in the Shobu, that I found a sweet spot in it straight up. So, there are a few more methods, and tweaks to have a go at still. I would say though, that there are abrasive particles coming from the Ozuku, as it does bring up the edge, it's not just burnishing steel. But there is no doubting that this jnat things is fun. But my interim conclusion is that I sought out hard, fine stones when I bought all three jnats, and if I refer back to the sellers hardness rating the Sbobu is an 8.8, and a miniscule amount less hard than the other two. So I have some technique issues to work out with very hard stones. I've read, where some avoid really hard stones, whilst others desire them, and from what I've seen on the various videos, it takes a little time and effort to master these type of stones. The fact I am even getting shaving edges off of a 9 rated hardness stone on my initial learnings of this Ozuku is good in itself. It may turn out to be amazing. I just need to find that sweet spot. I've got to stop looking at Shobu stones on the various sites, I feel that urge, after having fun with my first one, that a second could happen, but I will resist....aarrgh
PS I will try a second razor same technique on the Wakasa, another 9 rated stone particle size.

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Originally Posted by markbignosekelly

Steve

When you polish/burnish your Jnats do you just use water to finish razors or still use a nagura progression or do you have different Jnats to do lower end work?

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My 'normal' progression is mostly synth: Shapton Pro 2k for a bevel setter, followed by SP 5k and 8k. Then koma followed by tomo on the finisher. I occasionally use a Mikawa nagura progression. I usually finish on thin slurry, when I begin finishing with fresh slurry, I can see the edge through the slurry until it darkens with swarf.

The heavy lifting stones are a Shapton Glass HR 500 and HR 1k, these get me to the 2k Pro.

Hope this helps!

Cheers, Steve

I live near a jnat retailer here in California. He offered that I bring a couple of my main razors to his home to test on several stock stones to see which one would work best for me. What shocked me is after trying 20+ jnats non of them really did anything to the edges of my razors (he has a 300 power scope). I had to leave my razors with him so he could spend more time looking for a stone that actually transforms the edge from synthetic 8k to a jnat thing of beauty. He ended up finding a stone that would positively affect the edge with a kasumi finish within 20 or so straight passes w/DN slurry that shave was awesome!

The thing that shocked me was that so many stones that had great number ratings for some razor don't work the same for others. Your Ozuku and Wakasa may need a heavily slurry from the atoma and a lot of time. I would raise a heavy slurry and spend some good time on them until the slurry dries a bit then strop and shave. No misty water or no water only strokes. Sometimes water only or misty slurry for that matter on certain stones/razors can make the edge regress. Hope that helps.

Thanks for that, it gives me confidence in the whole process. I had not at any time believed that I was any where near where I could be skills wise. To hear your comment lets me entertain the chance I will get some good things from these stones. I reckon lots of honers see the jnats, naturals in general as a panacea for all edges, which is of course not so, as your mate in California has shown you. So I'm going to muddy up the slurries a fair bit and keep at it. It's lucky I actually enjoy honing, I really do love it, and when you shave with a razor you've honed and its a good thing, it's all worthwhile!

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Originally Posted by bobski

Thanks for that, it gives me confidence in the whole process. I had not at any time believed that I was any where near where I could be skills wise. To hear your comment lets me entertain the chance I will get some good things from these stones. I reckon lots of honers see the jnats, naturals in general as a panacea for all edges, which is of course not so, as your mate in California has shown you. So I'm going to muddy up the slurries a fair bit and keep at it. It's lucky I actually enjoy honing, I really do love it, and when you shave with a razor you've honed and its a good thing, it's all worthwhile!

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I love honing too, thankfully with naturals the learning continues :beer1: look forward to hearing how it goes?

Edge on Dovo 6/8 carbon steel on the Ozuku Asagi

Attachment 270536
I had put this edge up when I first got the Ozuku, and from memory the shave from this edge was Good, not a Wow edge though. Looking back after getting more stones, and learning a bit more, this edge looks OK, and by and large it is. So since acquiring the Shobu I am of the view that the edge or at least the shave was better than this first edge. I may well be being a bit picky here, but none the less it is what it is.

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Originally Posted by dshaves

I live near a jnat retailer here in California. He offered that I bring a couple of my main razors to his home to test on several stock stones to see which one would work best for me. What shocked me is after trying 20+ jnats non of them really did anything to the edges of my razors (he has a 300 power scope). I had to leave my razors with him so he could spend more time looking for a stone that actually transforms the edge from synthetic 8k to a jnat thing of beauty. He ended up finding a stone that would positively affect the edge with a kasumi finish within 20 or so straight passes w/DN slurry that shave was awesome!

The thing that shocked me was that so many stones that had great number ratings for some razor don't work the same for others.

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Natural stones vary a lot, and that is the reason there is no one stone that will do it all. Unfortunately for those of us that want to get into J-Nats and naturals in general that means collecting at least several stones to cover the spectrum of steels reasonably well.

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Originally Posted by bobski

Edge on Dovo 6/8 carbon steel on the Ozuku Asagi

Attachment 270536
I had put this edge up when I first got the Ozuku, and from memory the shave from this edge was Good, not a Wow edge though. Looking back after getting more stones, and learning a bit more, this edge looks OK, and by and large it is. So since acquiring the Shobu I am of the view that the edge or at least the shave was better than this first edge. I may well be being a bit picky here, but none the less it is what it is.

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Th at looks like a superb edge to me. If it's missing anything, I'd guess it'd be on the linen and leather side unless the bevel wasn't fully set and the edge still has some width.

There is lots to take in with natural stones and their use. That edge is ok, I think, coming from Suehiro 20k edges I maybe had a different idea of what I could expect from my naturals. Never the less, it's fun to to,learn from these experiences. Thanks for the input, but I still have a lot to learn.

Looks like a beautiful edge to me. I sold a couple of sweet JNATs myself, but I think at some point I'll get a nice Shoubodani again, as they seem to be one of simpler, more straightforward stones in the hard class.

It is very difficult to conclude what the edge really looks like, from only the one shot. If you're looking at the edge from the same angle, under the same light all the time, you are missing the real picture. Tilt the magnifier, use a different source of light, check under different angles. You need to be able to see the scratches, not just the haze. As a great honer once said, "I can show you anything I want under that scope".

As for honing, I would do two things differently. I would not dilute the slurry, but rather stay at the same (low-fat milky) consistency throughout the process. Add water as your stone absorbs it, just several drops at a time. Second, I would certainly not muddy things up. Yes, that will increase the cutting action, but is also likely to dull your edge, if the hone has any cutting power. Allow slurry the time it needs - as mentioned, maybe you need to spend a long time on it to see the improvement. I remember a while ago, seeing Takeshi Aoki honing some kamisori on the Tube, and he quickly did the ground and mid-range work, then when he raised Tomo slurry he said "I need to spend a loooooong time on this". Sounded as if he needed to spend the weekend on the damn thing...! [emoji38] But it's true - the finer you go, the longer you need to stay.

If you're gonna go to clear water, then spend some time on it (same principle applies). 20 strokes with no pressure may be doing nothing for your edge, unless of course you can prove/observe differently. You need to be able to see the change in the polish and that haze (as shown in the image) needs to darken quite a bit. I am almost certain it would, judging by the way you describe hardness of your stones. It could be useful to try it on a larger surface, such as a steel bar, a good knife, or a heavily used razor (with lots of hone wear). It will be easier to see with the naked eye. Don't count the strokes, but hone until you're done - meaning until you stop seeing any progress/changes.

Sorry, this was a bit long.. hope you find it somewhat useful though.

Totally agree, the finer it is the longer you stay on it. That's great advice because I have never owned a fast stone, or soft. I sought out hard, fine stones, 9's on Takeshi's scale of fineness, so my first few sessions on the jnat I was finished before I was finished, as you rightly point out. I've got a few hours this afternoon, so I'm going to work on one of my carbon steel blades, and just do a little honing. It's lucky I really enjoy it, so I'll see if the slurry breaks down, below any levels I may have encountered before. Thanks. Bob

I've used a hour or so with my Wakasa hone and a Dovo 6/8. (the photo of the hone is at hone of the day, page 182) and just sat down relaxed and spent some time on a carbon steel Dovo 6/8 thumb notch razor. It was bought to the Wakasa from a Naniwa 8k. Like on my others I created a diamond slurry with the Atoma 1200, but I didn't make it too thin or with too much water. I just did x strokes, covering the toe and heel with some torquing as needed. I let this slurry dry out a little, and just maintained it for a good half hour. The blade feedback got a little grabby, so at that point I rinsed the razor, gradually diluting and reducing the slurry to what we might call misty. I stayed on it at that level for another 7 or so mins. I could feel the stiction quite strongly, so effectively I lessened it off pressure wise to finish.
Long story, but I did spend a lot of time on it, more than on any other razor or jnat.
So I stropped and just now had a shave. A 'wow' moment, not quite, but it was an edge I would like to shave with again, one I'd not think, of needing more. It was good to go. I always think, that an edge is good, if you felt you were to be able to give it to another shaver as 'your work' and be confident it would get a tick of approval. So I thank you guys for putting those ideas forward, the time spent issue has really helped. When you think of finishing on a synthetic you think of a dozen strokes, well on these super fine naturals, if you counted strokes it would be hundreds and of course no pressure.

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Originally Posted by bobski

There is lots to take in with natural stones and their use. That edge is ok, I think, coming from Suehiro 20k edges I maybe had a different idea of what I could expect from my naturals. Never the less, it's fun to to,learn from these experiences. Thanks for the input, but I still have a lot to learn.

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You should be able to get the same keenness without the harshness if you have a natural and a good linen. I found a natural stone and chrome ox to beat the gok at its own game and sold my gok pretty quickly.

I can tell that edge in the picture hasn't seen a good linen. A good linen makes the edge look slightly worse under a scope but it will shave much sharper and smoother.

I don't think that it should take a long time on a jnat finisher generally speaking. It may help to think about what's going on.

Jnats are naturals, and so there are fast ones, slow ones, fine ones, hard ones, soft ones, you get the idea.

There are hard razors, not-so-hard razors, extreme hollow razors, half hollows, then there are machetes like the gold Dollars.

If I have a hard fine stone that isn't that fast - and this is not a bad thing BTW - and I have a hollow razor with hard steel, it may take longer, maybe twice as long because I can't use much pressure with the hollow razor. Now if I have a fast finisher and a Gold Dollar, I can use 2-3x the pressure without distorting the edge plus the fast stone cuts the honing time even more.

In the first case, the hollow razor with hard steel, if I want to reduce the time I have to spend on the finisher there are some options. I come off my 8k and go to koma, and most koma have a lot of grit in them, the slurry darkens very quickly. This helps remove synthetic scratches and gets me closer to the scratch pattern that the finisher produces. I used to go from 5k to koma without any noticeable difference.

Diamond plate slurry is usually more aggressive than tomo slurry, so I could substitute diamond slurry for koma and know people that do since good koma is not something you can usually just go out and buy these days.

Another thing I could do is go to a 10-12k stone before the finisher escpecially if the finisher is a slower polishing type stone. This obviously reduces the scratch depth and so the time it takes for a given finisher to remove them.

So I think it is a mistake to assume that you need to necessarily spend a lot of time on the finisher in many cases.

Cheers, Steve

Agreed on all accounts there Steve, with a caveat. "Long" is a relative term. As you rightly pointed out, there's a lot of variables, the biggest one being the stone (especially when it's someone else's stone LOL). When people ask me how long I spend on this and that stone (nagura included), I can't give a definite answer. Just "I hone until I'm done" type of answer, with helpful tips of course, on how to know what's done. I usually go by the scratches and keenness, I don't really know any other way. I compare the results of the last stone VS the current in "done" state. If my keenness improved, I move on. If not, I may try again on the same stone. If still no improvement, I know I did something wrong.. so usually then go two steps back. It doesn't happen often, but that is the recipe in general.