TNT and AHT question???

Okay so I have been getting amazing and consistent results now. I am very thankful for everyone's input as I have asked many questions as of late. Those responses have helped me tremendously!

I have been honing a ton lately and am still trying all the bevel setting tests. I have noticed when I do the TNT the razor grabs my thumbnail with enough resistance to move it while sliding smoothly across the whole way and won't let go until the finish line at the end of the toe, boom bevel set..Right. However in the back of my mind I will not move on unless it cuts arm hair. This is where things get tricky, after the TNT the razor will cut my leg hair with ease but not my arm hair so easily. So I keep going on the 1k until it does, which it is possible for the razor to cut arm hair easily.

If the razor cuts leg hair easily but not arm hair and I keep going until it does, does that mean the bevel has been set to it's maximum or could the attempt to make the razor cut arm when it is already cutting leg hair be overdoing the bevel or wasting metal???

Keep going until the razor cuts arm hair or move on after the passing of the TNT and the razor is cutting leg hair easily???

I personally don't think you can spend too much time refining the bevel. If it cuts hair on your leg it will cut hair on your face. You will eventually figure out your benchmarks observing them before the most important test of all, the shave test!

If you get a great shave try to remember what indicators supported this- AHT, TNT, HHT we all do it a little different I think. I don't believe there is a definitive quantifiable test for bevel- all have their window of interpretation.

How about a loupe looking straight down on the apex? That is one tool I use in conjunction with other tests.


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I have a question about your process. Do you repeat the hone, TNT, to leg hair, to arm hair,
and back to hone sequence every time? Have you tried testing arm hair before leg hair?

Perhaps the TNT test dulls the edge just enough to fail one hair test and not the other.
Perhaps the hair on your arm is finer than your leg hair, or visa versa.

Mix it all up and see what happens. After the TNT, go back to the hone for a few passes
before doing the hair tests.

Try just moving up the grit scale and see what happens. But don't do the TNT after the
bevel is set unless you go back to the hone before another test.

Its possible that "your" hair tests simply aren't reliable indicators.

I don't rely on any of those tests so I won't address them. Instead, I'll focus on a couple other things that can affect your bevel setting.

Do you use tape when you hone? If so, do you replace it when you are nearly finished with the bevel setting?
Do you lighten up your pressure when you are nearly finished with the bevel setting?

I do not spend a lot of effort using the TNT or the AHT. I use a loupe to ensure that the edges are meeting and forming a prefect apex from heel to toe.
What you are asking is about different thicknesses of hair. I am going to presume you have more coarse hair on your leg and that is why it cuts more readily.
The problem with the hair tests for me is that I don't have a lot of arm or leg hair to test with, which gets me into the issue of having enough that I can test the whole length of the blade. That is part of why I use the loupe, the other reason I use the loupe is that we all see the same things through the loupe, our hairs vary a lot. As stated above shave tests are an important factor. If your bevel is fully set at the 1K level you should be able to get a comfortable shave after stropping. It won't be the most delightful shave ever, but it will shave. there is a thread or threads about 1K shaving. If you can shave off the edge and then observer all of your sharpness tests it should help you to have your tests calibrated.

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Originally Posted by PaulKidd

I have a question about your process. Do you repeat the hone, TNT, to leg hair, to arm hair,
and back to hone sequence every time? Have you tried testing arm hair before leg hair?

Perhaps the TNT test dulls the edge just enough to fail one hair test and not the other.
Perhaps the hair on your arm is finer than your leg hair, or visa versa.

Mix it all up and see what happens. After the TNT, go back to the hone for a few passes
before doing the hair tests.

Try just moving up the grit scale and see what happens. But don't do the TNT after the
bevel is set unless you go back to the hone before another test.

Its possible that "your" hair tests simply aren't reliable indicators.

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Yes I have tested each direction, before and after the blade will cut leg hair no matter what well at least when I have done enough work on the 1k that is. There is a definite difference when the razor is able to cut arm hair and leg hair, this will happen before and after the TNT and after 5 refreshing strokes on the 1k stone. When that is the case the edge is very keen.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I don't rely on any of those tests so I won't address them. Instead, I'll focus on a couple other things that can affect your bevel setting.

Do you use tape when you hone? If so, do you replace it when you are nearly finished with the bevel setting?
Do you lighten up your pressure when you are nearly finished with the bevel setting?

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I do use tape when I hone. I have not refreshed the razor with a new piece of tape during the 1k bevel setting.... I do lighten up pressure when nearing the end of the 1k.

What are your reliable test for bevel set? Just curious

I hone on the bevel setter till I believe I can see that the bevel is set using a loupe and bright light. If I believe the bevel is set by visual inspection it is off to see if it will cut arm hair all along the edge. If it does, then some more very light strokes on the bevel setter and then on to the next hone. After that it is all visual inspection of the edge, stropping then a test shave.

Bob

Just saw your last post. A reliable test for bevel set is whatever one turns out to be the most reliable for you. In that everyone can be slightly different.

Bob

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Originally Posted by RezDog

I do not spend a lot of effort using the TNT or the AHT. I use a loupe to ensure that the edges are meeting and forming a prefect apex from heel to toe.
What you are asking is about different thicknesses of hair. I am going to presume you have more coarse hair on your leg and that is why it cuts more readily.
The problem with the hair tests for me is that I don't have a lot of arm or leg hair to test with, which gets me into the issue of having enough that I can test the whole length of the blade. That is part of why I use the loupe, the other reason I use the loupe is that we all see the same things through the loupe, our hairs vary a lot. As stated above shave tests are an important factor. If your bevel is fully set at the 1K level you should be able to get a comfortable shave after stropping. It won't be the most delightful shave ever, but it will shave. there is a thread or threads about 1K shaving. If you can shave off the edge and then observer all of your sharpness tests it should help you to have your tests calibrated.

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I have a loupe and use it to see if the scratches go all the way to the edge, for me even when that is the case the razor could still fail all of the other tests. The feather Artist club super pro blades require effort to cut through my beard hairs. I have tried the 1k shave it was amazing but that test was done after the edge would cut arm hair then I stropped and shaved...Maybe that is my answer lol.

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Originally Posted by Sdm84

I personally don't think you can spend too much time refining the bevel. If it cuts hair on your leg it will cut hair on your face. You will eventually figure out your benchmarks observing them before the most important test of all, the shave test!

If you get a great shave try to remember what indicators supported this- AHT, TNT, HHT we all do it a little different I think. I don't believe there is a definitive quantifiable test for bevel- all have their window of interpretation.

How about a loupe looking straight down on the apex? That is one tool I use in conjunction with other tests.


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I use the loupe in that way to look down the apex. I know if there is a reflection to go back to the stones. Thank you for the confirmation about spending time setting the bevel. My main concern is the possibility that I can over do the bevel set?

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Originally Posted by dshaves

I do use tape when I hone. I have not refreshed the razor with a new piece of tape during the 1k bevel setting.... I do lighten up pressure when nearing the end of the 1k.

What are your reliable test for bevel set? Just curious

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In that case you have a new problem...

Tape slightly lifts the spine and so slightly changes the angle of the blade relative to the hone. As the tape wears, which it is most prone to do on your lower grit bevel setter, the spine gets closer to the hone and the very apex of the bevel (aka the edge) lifts up away from the hone. So as the tape wears you are constantly lowering the angle of the bevels. Putting on a fresh piece of tape and doing maybe 10 more laps ensures that the edge actually is making contact with the hone.

As Rezdog described with using a loupe, I assess my edges with a stereomicroscope.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

In that case you have a new problem...

Tape slightly lifts the spine and so slightly changes the angle of the blade relative to the hone. As the tape wears, which it is most prone to do on your lower grit bevel setter, the spine gets closer to the hone and the very apex of the bevel (aka the edge) lifts up away from the hone. So as the tape wears you are constantly lowering the angle of the bevels. Putting on a fresh piece of tape and doing maybe 10 more laps ensures that the edge actually is making contact with the hone.

As Rezdog described with using a loupe, I assess my edges with a stereomicroscope.

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Quick question, even if I torque the blade down the worn tape will still cause this issue you mentioned?

The razors that are in question are my Hart steel razors, which the angle from spine to edge is too shallow so I use two pieces of tape, so far that has helped the edges strength. What you said makes total sense to me about changing the tape during bevel setting!!! I do always feel like I am chasing the edge...Thank you!

I have been using my loupe more often...

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Originally Posted by dshaves

Quick question, even if I torque the blade down the worn tape will still cause this issue you mentioned?

The razors that are in question are my Hart steel razors, which the angle from spine to edge is too shallow so I use two pieces of tape, so far that has helped the edges strength. What you said makes total sense to me about changing the tape during bevel setting!!! I do always feel like I am chasing the edge...Thank you!

I have been using my loupe more often...

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That is an excellent question!

I wish I had an excellent answer but here goes with what I've got...

YES--MAYBE! I'm not sure. Torque on the blade in favor of the edge will reduce that effect both because you will, or should be, causing less wear on the tape and because you are focusing the pressure on the edge. Of course, if you torque it too much you can flex the blade and cause the edge to lift up that way.

Proper torqueing of the blade is always a good thing. I still replace the tape to overcome this angle issue anyway.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

That is an excellent question!

I wish I had an excellent answer but here goes with what I've got...

YES--MAYBE! I'm not sure. Torque on the blade in favor of the edge will reduce that effect both because you will, or should be, causing less wear on the tape and because you are focusing the pressure on the edge. Of course, if you torque it too much you can flex the blade and cause the edge to lift up that way.

Proper torqueing of the blade is always a good thing. I still replace the tape to overcome this angle issue anyway.

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Hmmmm. Recently I have been working with one Hart razor in particular that after the bevel set I was using just enough torquing pressure to keep the edge down on the 5k and could see with my loupe that the scratches were not reaching all the way to the edge the very edge was hazy and had the look of a jnat kasumi finish. I put fresh tape on and the scratches still wouldn't go to the very edge, I was pretty puzzled??? Maybe the scratches did go to the edge but I spent too much time on that stone thus the tape wore out and lifted the very edge??? I am now wondering if I was to change the tape before finishing on the 1k would that remedy the length of time spent on the removing the scratches from the 1k???

I might be spending too much time with the synthetic slurry???

It could easily be that you are torqueing the blade too much on the next hone after the bevel setter. If you replace the tape after your bevel is set that raises the spine slightly and puts the apex of the bevel in more contact with the hone and less on the shoulder of the bevel. You should easily reach the very edge with the scratches and less so toward the shoulder of the bevel. If you apply too much torque/pressure to the edge the edge may lift and not be in contact. After the bevel setter very much lighter pressure is used.

Bob

I will definitely try refreshing the tape before I finish on the 1k and see if that bumps the razors edge up to passing the AHT. One definite is when the razor does pass the AHT test the final result of the shave test always passes with flying colors!!! I was mainly asking for what I am doing by refining the bevel set to that point of "AHT" made sense to the pros. Now I might have a way to expedite that process and save some time. Thank you

On the issue of my recent Hart razor honing I figured out what I am doing wrong from another thread lol. Now that I think about it I was using the Shapton glass diamond lapping plate which is very very very mellow and recently I switched to using the DMT325 because it raises more slurry probably too much slurry? This little hazy thing didn't start until after using the DMT325, this didn't dawn on me until right now!!! I'm an idiot lol . I will refresh the surface and wash off the slurry for now...Thank you

The quality of discussion never ceases to amaze me!

Thank you to you all. There are so many small details that are discussed that are very helpful.

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Originally Posted by dshaves

....One definite is when the razor does pass the AHT test the final result of the shave test always passes with flying colors!!!...

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I think this says it all right here. You are more than likely saving steel in the long run. A properly set bevel more than likely never has to be re-set again which saves the razor as opposed to fiddling around trying to hone it again and again. My early morning thoughts are continue to go with the AHT as that seems to be closer calibrated to a set bevel for you.

I was reading through this thread and noticed someone saying to look through the loupe at the apex whether they are meeting all the way. Is the visible with a 20x triplet and bright light? For now I can only look at the scratch pattern, and can't yet tell the difference between the scratches relative to the grits yet...

Sounds to me like you have too many variables going on here. Taped spine, slurry on a synthetic, torqueing, different hair cuts...

Hart steel is tough enough (In my experience) to handle a wide bevel. No need for tape. No need to slurry a synthetic. Torque should be so minimal as it's nothing to really speak of.

Don't make this out to be harder than it really is.

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Originally Posted by Mikali

I was reading through this thread and noticed someone saying to look through the loupe at the apex whether they are meeting all the way. Is the visible with a 20x triplet and bright light? For now I can only look at the scratch pattern, and can't yet tell the difference between the scratches relative to the grits yet...

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When you have the scratches running all the way from the shoulder of the bevel to the edge check with a loupe under a strong light. You are looking for reflections of light coming off the edge not the bevel. If you see reflections of light off the edge you bevel is likely not set.

You do not need terribly high magnification for checking progress but it does take a while to get to know what and how to identify these indicators of a bevel being set. That is the hard part when you are beginning to learn how to hone and set a bevel.

Bob