Sharpness after Honing

Hello everyone,

I would like some insight into how sharp you experienced honers expect your razors to be in between honing and stropping. When I am finished with my Shapton 12,000 I can often shave arm hair pretty smoothly but the razor doesn't seem to be passing the HHT consistently. Do I need to spend more time on the Shapton? Or could this be my jumping too quickly from 8k to 12k? My progression is as follows: I do circles and x strokes on a Norton 4k, X strokes only with hardly any pressure on a Norton 8k, and then follow up with no pressure x strokes on a Shapton 12k. I'm pretty much just following Lynn Abram's video on Youtube using the Norton 4k/8k combination stone. My razor is a Dovo Prima Silver Steel.

Or, do you guys not expect to pass an HHT until after stropping?

Thanks for your help. Just a beginner trying to get my sea legs here.

my test is tree topping arm hair and it has cut really easy and along the whole length of the blade. I've never had much luck with the HHT

Same here as rodb. I thank Glen (gssixgun) for helping me not to bother with the HHT altogether. It’s the shave test that matters most for me when I am done honing. :)

If you are new to honing, I would suggest trying to get the best shaving edge you can off 8k. Once you've found it, then move up to the 12k. I generally do the HHT after stropping. The key there is to be consistent in how you apply the hair to the edge each time.

The HHT will tell you that the edge is sharp but it cannot tell you if that edge is smooth.
Either way to get an excellent edge you need to be passing that HHT test.

Probably your issues lie at the bevel setting phase.
You want it easily cutting arm hair all along the edge before moving on past the 1k or 4k if that's your bevel setting stone.

Hope this helps...

All great points.

Id not get too hung up on the HHT though, some can calibrate it well for them others not so much. As I mentioned in another thread I can tree top arm hair on the 1k but cannot for the life of me use the hair on my head.
I tried an experiment with a razor that shaved well, re stropped then tried a few different peoples hair ( family not random people! ) some worked better than others one or too not at all. Everyone is different including our barnets.

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Originally Posted by markbignosekelly

As I mentioned in another thread I can tree top arm hair on the 1k but cannot for the life of me use the hair on my head.

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Keep this in mind. I am the exact opposite. So there is no definitive "one size fits all" test that i have found other than the shave test. There are very few "tests" other than the shave test that will be a lot different off your bevel setter vs once you've gone up your progression. In short, if you're having sharpness issues at the 12k stone, you're more than likely having sharpness issues off the 1k stone. And as such you need to check that bevel.
I am one of the few who does use the HHT. but I only use it with my own hair, and I've done it enough that I can evaluate the nuances in behavior against the edge. this takes time, practice, and reducing as many variables as you can. Keep it up!

My arm hair is so thin and lays so close to the skin that I haven't been able to use it as a sharpness test. I have tried HHT with some of my wife's/daughters' hair but that can be inconsistent as well. The only test that works for me is the shave test. If I can swipe the blade across my cheek, across the grain, and it doesn't feel harsh and cuts to the point I can't feel stubble following the same direction as the blade than it passes. If this test fails I grab a different razor that I already know is sharp and finish the shave. I am nine months into straight razor shaving and honing and I very rarely get a razor honed to pass this test on the first try, but I'm getting better and it usually doesn't take much additional work to finish the blade to full shave ready status.

So long as the blade will cut my arm hair easily all along the edge at the bevel set I am set to go up the progression. After the finisher I strop with Crox, linen and lastly leather before doing a shave. The shave tells me if I have hit the mark. Never could do a HHT. Everyone has their own way, there is no real set method of testing for shaving sharpness. You have to find what works or does not work for you through experiment and observation.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

So long as the blade will cut my arm hair easily all along the edge at the bevel set I am set to go up the progression. After the finisher I strop with Crox, linen and lastly leather before doing a shave. The shave tells me if I have hit the mark. Never could do a HHT. Everyone has their own way, there is no real set method of testing for shaving sharpness. You have to find what works or does not work for you through experiment and observation.

Bob

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Same exact for me. The hair on my head (what little is there lol!!) doesn't work well. I lather up one side of my face and do a quick shave test of about an inch, that should tell you what the edge is like

Forget about the HHT and just shave with it.

I just make sure my blade will treetop arm hairs at bevel set (like mentioned above) and (as mentioned above) if you can't get a good shave off 8K then you need more work.

I've never been a fan of the HHT as there are too many variables and it doesn't matter, all that matters is how a blade will shave.

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Originally Posted by zaneprice5

Or, do you guys not expect to pass an HHT until after stropping?
.

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I don't even try HHT until I strop. Sometimes a little extra stropping will bring an edge to passing MY HHT. The HHT is a subjective, probing test so my HHT cannot be correlated to another persons HHT. However I do get very good correlation between my HHT and the shave test.

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Originally Posted by Butzy

Keep this in mind. I am the exact opposite. So there is no definitive "one size fits all" test that i have found other than the shave test. There are very few "tests" other than the shave test that will be a lot different off your bevel setter vs once you've gone up your progression. In short, if you're having sharpness issues at the 12k stone, you're more than likely having sharpness issues off the 1k stone. And as such you need to check that bevel.
I am one of the few who does use the HHT. but I only use it with my own hair, and I've done it enough that I can evaluate the nuances in behavior against the edge. this takes time, practice, and reducing as many variables as you can. Keep it up!

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I also successfully use a calibrated HHT.

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Originally Posted by zaneprice5

—“I would like some insight into how sharp you experienced honers expect your razors to be in between honing and stropping”

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For me when I am done honing and before I start to strop-my edge has to pass a HHT an inch past my grip (HHT 4) before I move to stropping. If not I go back to the stones and usually the problem is at the bevel set. I use a very fine hair.

How does your HHT react with a new DE blade ????

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

How does your HHT react with a new DE blade ????

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I am assuming you are asking the OP this? As this is a great way to calibrate your HHT.

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Originally Posted by Steel

I am assuming you are asking the OP this? As this is a great way to calibrate your HHT.

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yep it is a great way to calibrate most of the touch tests

Well, you've awakened me because a fresh feather DE blade doesn't even grab my hair.

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Originally Posted by zaneprice5

Well, you've awakened me because a fresh feather DE blade doesn't even grab my hair.

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Try holding the hair from the other end.

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Originally Posted by zaneprice5

Well, you've awakened me because a fresh feather DE blade doesn't even grab my hair.

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Originally Posted by Steel

Try holding the hair from the other end.

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I do my HHT with the hair wet and holding the root end. Root out cuts a little easier. I have a lock of hair that I cut after washing my hair with a non conditioner shampoo. Conditioner and oils really make the hair harder to HHT with IME.

Don't forget you can cheat on the HHT by bringing the hair down at a slight angle as opposed to truly vertical.
Of course your only cheating yourself :/

I don't really do tests that much. My arm hair is like that of a Disney Princess and just won't work on any test. My head hair has pretty much gone the way of the Dodo, so I am limited as to what I can use. My wife's hair would require a swing from an axe to cut so that's not great either.

I usually look for the blade undercutting the water on the hone, check for scratches/striations with a loup, strop then shave test. I figure that I am honing it to shave with and if it does that well and comfortably for me, then that's good enough.

I guess these tests are important for people who hone for others, but for me on my own razors I don't worry too much.

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Originally Posted by Porl

I guess these tests are important for people who hone for others, but for me on my own razors I don't worry too much.

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Mainly, for me, it lets me know that I'm done and I am confident that I won't need to get the hones back out the next day after the test shave.

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Originally Posted by zaneprice5

Well, you've awakened me because a fresh feather DE blade doesn't even grab my hair.

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This is why it should be used as a baseline :)

You learn what to expect and how to do and interpret the tests using your hair, your finger nails, and your finger pads

One of the things I have learned from teaching people to hone at the meets is nearly every single time as you are passing around a razor for people to see and touch. At least one person in the group will get a Fail out of the tests..

They must be calibrated to you and the easiest way to do that is to start by seeing what a fresh DE balde does :p

Very interesting. I calibrated the HHT to my hair using razors honed by Glen. That way I had a baseline to go by while learning to hone. Interestingly I never tried a DE blade until last evening after I read this thread. A new Feather DE cut hair once in five attempts. Much worse than I expected.
I do have the same experience as one of the posters above, HHT tells me how sharp a blade is but tells me nothing about how comfortable the shave will be. The one thing I know is a razor that doesn't pass HHT wont shave my neck ATG without tugging.

I think that the posts about HHT illustrate a shortcoming of using HHT. I've found that it is difficult or impossible to compare different 'stuff', like comparing a synthetic edge to a natural edge, probably two different naturals, or a DE blade (most are coated right?) and a straight razor.

After the 8k Shapton Pro, I typically use koma then a tomo nagura on a jnat finisher. I'm testing the edge for consistency with the HHT at each grit above 2k to be sure the entire edge is coming up the same. But when I test on the koma edge after the 8k, it's always considerably worse though it shaves as well or better. I concluded that you cannot compare the sharpness of the edge between the two stones using HHT.

I can use it to judge sharpness/readiness off the jnat finisher in the sequence that I use, and I can tell which jnat finisher of two is usually better by comparing HHT. I can also tell that my Shapton 5k edge is sharper than my 2k edge, and that my 8k edge is sharper than the 5k (all Shapton Pros). I would be hesitant to try and compare say a 5k Chosera with the Shapton 5k using HHT.

Cheers, Steve

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Originally Posted by Steve56

I think that the posts about HHT illustrate a shortcoming of using HHT. I've found that it is difficult or impossible to compare different 'stuff', like comparing a synthetic edge to a natural edge, probably two different naturals, or a DE blade (most are coated right?) and a straight razor.

After the 8k Shapton Pro, I typically use koma then a tomo nagura on a jnat finisher. I'm testing the edge for consistency with the HHT at each grit above 2k to be sure the entire edge is coming up the same. But when I test on the koma edge after the 8k, it's always considerably worse though it shaves as well or better. I concluded that you cannot compare the sharpness of the edge between the two stones using HHT.

I can use it to judge sharpness/readiness off the jnat finisher in the sequence that I use, and I can tell which jnat finisher of two is usually better by comparing HHT. I can also tell that my Shapton 5k edge is sharper than my 2k edge, and that my 8k edge is sharper than the 5k (all Shapton Pros). I would be hesitant to try and compare say a 5k Chosera with the Shapton 5k using HHT.

Cheers, Steve

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Totally agree. You have to know what HHT results you have come to expect out of each different process and how that relates to the resulting shave. This is why the HHT is of questionable value to the inexperienced, however a beginner can start building that experience by comparing their HHT results to their shaves.

I usually only do the HHT once or maybe twice for each razor/hone session. Once to verify that I am done honing, and then sometimes again when I feel that the shave quality is starting to fall off before re honing. The second test is mostly a reality check, like 'is this razor really starting to dull or was something wrong with my prep etc.'

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Originally Posted by bluesman7

Totally agree. You have to know what HHT results you have come to expect out of each different process and how that relates to the resulting shave. This is why the HHT is of questionable value to the inexperienced, however a beginner can start building that experience by comparing their HHT results to their shaves.

I usually only do the HHT once or maybe twice for each razor/hone session. Once to verify that I am done honing, and then sometimes again when I feel that the shave quality is starting to fall off before re honing. The second test is mostly a reality check, like 'is this razor really starting to dull or was something wrong with my prep etc.'

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I only do it through the grits the first time I hone a razor, after that 8k is about as low as I go and usually it's just tomo slurry on the finisher to touch up an edge.

Cheers, Steve

I test twice, arm hair after bevel set then after finishing stone I strop and tree tops test the arm hair too. It's consistent and no mucking round with calibrations or finding bits of hair to test with.

I test mainly when setting the bevel, I use a combination of the thumb pad, thumbnail, HHT and arm/leg hair shaving test; and also go by the general feel / feedback of that razor on the hone. The main one is the arm hair shave test and how well it does or does not shave, that's the tell all for me.

I find sticking to multiple test that I generally get a better understand of where the edge is at. I mostly have to do this with blades that take longer to set the bevel on, like when restoring a chip, gotta be sure that the bevel is meeting and no damage / harshness is left at the edge.

The HHT is subjective and open for interpretation, but after the years I know what I can look for in this test, I use it extensively and exclusively while finishing my razors.
(Subjective as in, when I was less experienced with honing I also got good HHT results but bad shaves)

I noticed myself doing a HHT before every shave to tell how my edge is advancing after every shave, gives me an understanding when I need to touch up.


Ah yeah, there's one other test I sometimes do, when I'm cleaning my razor on a paper tissue or a piece of toilet paper, I fold the paper and cut it with the razor and I can feel where the edge is smooth and where it's still rough that way -> more honing.

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Originally Posted by zaneprice5

Well, you've awakened me because a fresh feather DE blade doesn't even grab my hair.

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There is a reason for that. Feather blades have a Teflon or some such coating. When new they will not cut a hanging hair, period. After you've used the blade once or twice and some of that coating is removed exposing the sharp apex, it will kill the HHT.

I noticed the same thing the first time I ever tried to HHT a Feather Pro blade for my Feather A.C. straight. Out of the dispenser it would not cut a hanging hair. After a shave it would, and after two shaves it would slay a hanging hair i.e. HHT5.

As I recall, Todd S. has an article about this on his blog with electron microscope photos that clearly shows the coating.