norton 4000 resistance

I am having a difficult time making an even stroke on the first leg of a pass on the 4000 side of my norton combo stone. The toe of the razor always seems to meet some resistance and lift off of the hone. I have lapped the side in this manner 4 or 5 times.

I soaked the stone and the flattening stone for about 15 minutes. Then I put the stones on top of each other and rubbed until the pencil grid was gone. I held one stone in the right and one in the left. and am having the same problem. Would pressure be used in this instance? I am just beginning honing and do not know what the problem is and how I should fix it.

I use two hands to hone, with good results every time. Assuming that you're right handed, use your index on your left hand to keep the blade flat. Just use enough pressure to keep it flat, unless it's really dull. Also close the scales toward the blade about 20 degrees and curl your pinkie finger (right hand) under them. Ever so lightly lift with the pinkie to ensure universal flatness. Then try shaving one of your eyebrows entirely off. This is what works for me....ok, except for the last part, but please post a picture if you do that please.

Matt,

A couple of thoughts here: How is your stone oriented in relation to your body? Are you sitting or standing while honing?

Changing these two factors made a big difference for me early on. I was honing side to side. When I started pointing the stone away from my body and honing toward and away from me, I was able to get a much more even stroke.

Sitting down instead of standing up also helped. Keep your elbow high--don't rest it on the table. This gets the hone closer to your eyes, so you can see better. It also allows your arm to travel freely during the stroke.

Also, are you using an X pattern or going straight across the hone? You can go straight across with a 3-inch Norton, but in my book an X is still better. Although X doesn't X--go figure. :)

Keep at it,
Josh

Um, in addition to what has been said:

It may just be the razor - e.g. weird warp / twist, etc. One more thing to look out for :D

Good luck
Ivo

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Originally Posted by JoshEarl

Matt,

A couple of thoughts here: How is your stone oriented in relation to your body? Are you sitting or standing while honing?

Changing these two factors made a big difference for me early on. I was honing side to side. When I started pointing the stone away from my body and honing toward and away from me, I was able to get a much more even stroke.

Sitting down instead of standing up also helped. Keep your elbow high--don't rest it on the table. This gets the hone closer to your eyes, so you can see better. It also allows your arm to travel freely during the stroke.

Also, are you using an X pattern or going straight across the hone? You can go straight across with a 3-inch Norton, but in my book an X is still better. Although X doesn't X--go figure. :)

Keep at it,
Josh

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I am sitting with the hone away from me. I started like you but immediatley figured that honing away is easier. I have been sitting at a bar though which may not be as good as say a kitchen table or dining table. I am trying to do my x stroke and I can do it well wehn performing the return stroke, but the first stroke away from me I find that I am encountering too much resistance and am removing more metal from the tip of the blade. I can actually see a streak while moving the blade and then hitting the part where I lift the razor by accident. I note also that the water seems to just soak up in this part of the hone. Having a difficult time keeping water there for some odd reason.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by izlat

Um, in addition to what has been said:

It may just be the razor - e.g. weird warp / twist, etc. One more thing to look out for :D

Good luck
Ivo

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I am almost positive this razor is fine.

In my experience the Norton Flattening stone leaves a VERY rough finish on the Norton 4K/8K stone and the 4K side almost feels like honing on rough sandpaper. I find it difficult to maintain a smooth honing stroke on the 4K side right after the stone has been lapped. On the other hand when I lap the stone with my DMT 325 grit the 4K side of the stone feels like velvet and it is very easily to slide the razor across. Using the DMT stone to lap and clean my Norton instead of the Norton flattening stone made a noticable difference in the quality of my edges. If I were you I would try to lap the Norton 4K/8K with 1000 grit wet sandpaper and see if this improves things for you. If you see improvement then you might consider purchasing a DMTC or Norton 1K to lap your Norton with instead of their extremely rough lapping stone.

really can't afford any more hones razors , soaps and such. Any other tips?

How about I ship the stone to JoshEarl, have him take a quick look at it and pay him a nominal fee??? And shipping charges:hmmm: :hmmm:

Might just be easier to have a more experienced set of eyes give it a quick eval.

What might also help is to rub a bar of soap on the stone after taking it out of the water. It doesn't take much and helps the blade glide over the stone's surface more smoothly. Works for me, anyway.

Matt,

I'd be glad to take a look at your hone--no fee involved. (Return shipping would be appreciated; it would be less than $10.) :) I could lap it with my DMT hone while I was at it.

I think you have my address already... :)

It sounds to me like there's a weird spot in your hone or, more likely, you're varying your stroke slightly. I've had this problem in the past. It's easy to tip the heel up, which causes the toe to dig in a little... If you're removing more metal, this sounds like a possibility.

Have you tried taping the spine? I find that this reduces the friction and makes a smooth stroke easier to execute. :)

Have a good one,
Josh

OK, Matt's Norton arrived yesterday, and I took a look at it this morning.

I believe I've figured out what the problem was. Matt had lapped the hone, and it seemed to be flat. However, most of the factory surface still remained on both sides of the hone.

The 4K side felt rough and pebbly, and the 8K side just felt nasty. I'll bet this is more of a problem for new honers than we realize.

The 4K side should feel smooth but abbrasive, not at all bumpy. The 8K side should feel smooth and silky, almost like a dinner plate. I lapped both sides of the hone with my DMT 320 grit hone until the factory surface was gone. Now both sides have the texture I'm used to. It took about 15 minutes.

This shouldn't change the cutting behavior of the hone, but it probably has a lot of effect on your ability to execute a smooth honing stroke.

In addition to the usual advice to draw a pencil grid and lap until it's gone, I think we should also advise newbies to lap until the factory surface is gone. I'd say give the hone five to 10 minutes on a 220-grit paper, then finish for a minute or two on 600-grit paper.

I also rounded the corners and edges of Matt's hone. I think he'll like it much better now. :)

Josh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoshEarl

In addition to the usual advice to draw a pencil grid and lap until it's gone, I think we should also advise newbies to lap until the factory surface is gone. I'd say give the hone five to 10 minutes on a 220-grit paper, then finish for a minute or two on 600-grit paper.

Josh

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I never knew that there was a "Factory surface" that needs to be removed. I will need to give this info a try. I notice on my 4k side that there are spots that seem different... more course than the rest of the surface. Perhaps this is the problem. Seems to make sense.:hmmm:

How thick is this factory surface anyway?:thinking:

I have flattened my hone on 400 and 800 grit wet/dry but only enough to get it flat.

Just when you think you know what there is to know...

How can you tell if the surface is removed or not? Will using the flattening stone in the future provide decent lapping?

I must thank Josh for all of his helping hands lately.
Thanks!

Good call Josh!:) and very nice of you to make the effort.

When the man made stones are made at the factory they are placed in a high pressure mold and then fired at high temps for a long time. This does result in a slight surface "glazing" hat can impede the performance of the hone. Josh has it right, lap with coarse grit first but finish with a finer grit like 600-1000.

Matt,

The factory surface isn't very deep. I think most guys are worried about ruining their expensive hone and so they lap really gingerly at first. Short of dropping and shattering your Norton, or gouging it deeply, it's hard to really ruin these hones. You might have to do some extra lapping to fix it, but since the hones will last for thousands of razors, wasting a little bit of it really isn't going to kill you.

The Norton flattening stone will do a great job of maintaining the surface now. Actually, it would have been fine to take off the factory finish, too. But we didn't know that was the problem. :)

It's hard for a new honer to tell if the factory finish has been removed, since you wouldn't have any baseline to know how the hone should feel. Spending a little extra time on the initial lapping is good, and feel how the stone's surface changes as you progress.

Josh