tape vs no tape?

so I was practicing honing a couple razors last night and finishing them this morning, and got to wondering about the tape vs no tape thing.

right now I am liking the tape, as ive only honed a couple dozen razors, and sometimes get a bit heavy handed and put extra wear on the spine. and the tape helps as I can see that I would be putting the wear there and reminds me to lighten up. also I can see where when making razors for sale, that folks wouldn't like the hone marks on a fresh blade.

but I guess my question is how long it would take to notice a difference in the edge geometry by using tape all the time on a single razor? as in a person purchases a razor, and shaves with it every day, and hones it once every couple months with tape. ive worn out plenty of knives out using them hard, but there you are talking about cutting rope, wood, insulation, shingles, ect.. wrecking edges on staples and bone and constantly resetting edges and such. with a razor and just using even the relatively fine 1000 grit stone to reset a bevel, I cant imagine that we are really removing much steel during a normal honing.

would it take 5 years? 10? more? and would the increase in edge angle when you finally got out of the normal range be noticeable?

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Originally Posted by caltoncutlery

so I was practicing honing a couple razors last night and finishing them this morning, and got to wondering about the tape vs no tape thing.

right now I am liking the tape, as ive only honed a couple dozen razors, and sometimes get a bit heavy handed and put extra wear on the spine. and the tape helps as I can see that I would be putting the wear there and reminds me to lighten up. also I can see where when making razors for sale, that folks wouldn't like the hone marks on a fresh blade.

but I guess my question is how long it would take to notice a difference in the edge geometry by using tape all the time on a single razor? as in a person purchases a razor, and shaves with it every day, and hones it once every couple months with tape. ive worn out plenty of knives out using them hard, but there you are talking about cutting rope, wood, insulation, shingles, ect.. wrecking edges on staples and bone and constantly resetting edges and such. with a razor and just using even the relatively fine 1000 grit stone to reset a bevel, I cant imagine that we are really removing much steel during a normal honing.

would it take 5 years? 10? more? and would the increase in edge angle when you finally got out of the normal range be noticeable?

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I hope you will enjoy Glen's video. :tu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMchDtXzUO4&t=197s

Ain't no thang! :D

My thoughts are;
When in the early stages of learning to hone, very often there is way too much pressure put on the spine, and no tape risks the blade geometry far more than the other way around. Later on when one gets good at it and learns toctorque the blade and hone the edge not the spine, tape is then optional.

See the affect for yourself. Set a bevel with tape. Remove the tape and see how many strokes it takes to get back to a clean edge. Take a few strokes and check your progress often. It's not a big difference.

The 'how long to change the angle question' is mute ~ 1/16" would have to be worn off of the width to change the bevel angle 1 degree. I'm more worried about the 1 degree change toward the obtuse that you add by using tape. I generally go by the bevel angle even on brand new razors that I plan to sell unless the razor is etched. I've had people ask about hone wear in person and have shone them a razor that has been honed a few times without tape. I almost have to point out the hone wear and when I ask them if it looks bad to them I've never gotten anything but a no. This particular razor has often been picked out by people as their favorite! I'll have it at the Denver meet, unless it sells before then. I would always recommend tape to a beginners until they can hone without wearing through the tape. Beginner shavers are probably better off with a more obtuse bevel angle and I bring the owners experience into the discussion of tape or no tape. If they are experienced shavers and I'm seeing angles at 16 degrees or more, I tell them that I would hone that razor without tape unless they have any objection.

A lot of times I will hone witout tape until i get to my finisher then add one layer and put on a micro bevel but thats different, the method I used to use was no tape unless the spine is worked or has gold or some other type of embellishment on the spine but now I just use tape all the time just to keep the wear off, I usually sell razors after I use them for awhile and some guys want zero hone wear not even a micro thin line of wear so its just easier to tape and be done.

I only use tape when honing out chips, and usually when I receive older slightly beat up razors with micro chips and shaving bevels that are quite far off, I use tape first to remove some steel at the edge first and fast.

When that is done, I remove the tape and re-set the bevel and continue the progression without tape.

Gotta love it, yet another tape vs no tape thread.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

Gotta love it, yet another tape vs no tape thread.

Bob

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The Neverending Story - Honing Edition


Attachment 277795

Just thought I would throw in I hone without tape. Sometimes I use tape if it is wedge I trying to hone with weird bevel but usually not. I don’t really use my “nice” Razors enough that me honing them will change anything for very long time *I am assuming

I touch up one razor a month. I use one layer of tape. I'll probably do so until the roll is finished. By then I figure I'll be competent enough not to need a second roll.

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Originally Posted by BobH

Gotta love it, yet another tape vs no tape thread.

Bob

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I love 'tape vs no tape' threads, because it relates to one of my favorite issues, bevel angles. :rofl2:

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Originally Posted by bluesman7

I love 'tape vs no tape' threads, because it relates to one of my favorite issues, bevel angles. :rofl2:

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Hard to believe you have issues with bevel angles.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

Hard to believe you have issues with bevel angles.

Bob

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My favorite issue.....to talk about.

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Originally Posted by bluesman7

My favorite issue.....to talk about.

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As a razor maker I could see that. As far as tape or no tape goes from my pov it is a tempest in a tea pot normally meaning little on most razors wrt bevel angle. It can oth be very helpful on some with an out of whack bevel angle.

Bob

Tape... I love it.

Never honed without tape I'm slightly ashamed to say , for some reason?

There is the chunky 88 tape which I used nower days and then there's the thinner type tape .

One can even combo up and use both together :)

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Originally Posted by BobH

.....As far as tape or no tape goes from my pov it is a tempest in a tea pot normally meaning little on most razors wrt bevel angle. It can oth be very helpful on some with an out of whack bevel angle.

Bob

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+1 I rarely used to use tape until I noticed how little it actually changes things. Only a few strokes and you have erased the effect of using it. Now I use it all the time. I don’t see a reason not too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BobH

As a razor maker I could see that. As far as tape or no tape goes from my pov it is a tempest in a tea pot normally meaning little on most razors wrt bevel angle. It can oth be very helpful on some with an out of whack bevel angle.

Bob

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Originally Posted by Steel

+1 I rarely used to use tape until I noticed how little it actually changes things. Only a few strokes and you have erased the effect of using it. Now I use it all the time. I don’t see a reason not too.

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I would point out that, at the time of use, tape adds a degree of bevel angle. No big deal and certainly does not harm the razor. I just happen to like the shave from very acute bevel angles.

I guess having a very acute angle on a very finely ground razor may lead to a weaker more fragile edge having less meat behind it. OTH that would just mean more frequent honings I suppose. Like most things it is whatever, within reason, works to the users preference.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

I guess having a very acute angle on a very finely ground razor may lead to a weaker more fragile edge having less meat behind it. OTH that would just mean more frequent honings I suppose. Like most things it is whatever, within reason, works to the users preference.

Bob

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That is correct. Not all microstructures of steel can hold very acute bevel angles. On the other hand I typically get 80-100 shaves before going back to the stones. I don't have a heavy beard and I wear a van dyke so YMMV.

Tape vs no tape? That is the question, or underwear or commando? Tc

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Originally Posted by bluesman7

I would point out that, at the time of use, tape adds a degree of bevel angle. No big deal and certainly does not harm the razor. I just happen to like the shave from very acute bevel angles.

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I don’t think 1 degree makes one acute and another not. :rofl2: I would say they are both acute and the difference is nill. In fact I have had the cake both ways and don’t notice any difference. Unless you are talking about a cute angle? Now that is a much different topic for another thread. Lol.

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Originally Posted by Steel

I don’t think 1 degree makes one acute and another not. :rofl2: I would say they are both acute and the difference is nill. In fact I have had the cake both ways and don’t notice any difference. Unless you are talking about a cute angle? Now that is a much different topic for another thread. Lol.

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Well the difference is 1 degree above nil.:hmmm:. I'm not saying that I could feel 1 degree, but if I prefer angles around 15 degrees, and a given razor will hone at 16 degrees or 17 degrees with tape, I'm going to go with the 16 degrees as it is closer to my ideal. It's all good and we can follow our own ways.

If the accepted angles for razors are 15-20 degrees [this is all subjective, but go with these numbers for the sake of argument] and below 15 is too harsh and above 20 is too obtuse to shave well. It is obvious to me that a 15.5 degree edge will have a very different character when compared to a 19.5 degree edge even though they are both within acceptable angles. Personally I've never gotten better than meh shaves out of razors with razors of 19 degrees or higher. I've measured razors in the low 20s. This is getting up into woodworking tool angles, Yes you can shave with plane irons and even axes if you want to prove something, but they are not at proper razor angles. IMO

Tc had a couple of razors that he said always gave him great shaves. I was very surprised when I measured them both at around 19 degrees so YMMV.

Double Ducks have a good reputation as great shavers. All of the hollow ground DDs that I have measured have been about 15-16 degrees. I don't think that is coincidence. I did recently measure a DD wedge at over 18 however.

As you can see, I'm kind of a bevel angle nut.

Couldn't resist

Bob

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=Ye_fZocBAMI

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Originally Posted by bluesman7

I'm not saying that I could feel 1 degree...It's all good and we can follow our own ways.

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See, we agree right there. :tu

According to my calculations that 1 degree translates to a smidge less then 1/42” so pretty much microscope stuff right there. But all of that really doesn’t matter to me. I guess I am willing to sacrifice a change in angle that is not perceivable in the shave for less hone ware that is perceivable on the razors spine.

Not trying to convince anyone one way or the other. They are your razors, do what you want. Nothing wrong with a discussion.

3M brand electrical tape 77 is .007 thick and the 88 is .0085 thick. that little added to the spine i really don't think would change the angle of the bevel that much. I use the 88 on every razor and they seem to do OK.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bluesman7

Well the difference is 1 degree above nil.:hmmm:. I'm not saying that I could feel 1 degree, but if I prefer angles around 15 degrees, and a given razor will hone at 16 degrees or 17 degrees with tape, I'm going to go with the 16 degrees as it is closer to my ideal. It's all good and we can follow our own ways.

If the accepted angles for razors are 15-20 degrees [this is all subjective, but go with these numbers for the sake of argument] and below 15 is too harsh and above 20 is too obtuse to shave well. It is obvious to me that a 15.5 degree edge will have a very different character when compared to a 19.5 degree edge even though they are both within acceptable angles. Personally I've never gotten better than meh shaves out of razors with razors of 19 degrees or higher. I've measured razors in the low 20s. This is getting up into woodworking tool angles, Yes you can shave with plane irons and even axes if you want to prove something, but they are not at proper razor angles. IMO

Tc had a couple of razors that he said always gave him great shaves. I was very surprised when I measured them both at around 19 degrees so YMMV.

Double Ducks have a good reputation as great shavers. All of the hollow ground DDs that I have measured have been about 15-16 degrees. I don't think that is coincidence. I did recently measure a DD wedge at over 18 however.

As you can see, I'm kind of a bevel angle nut.

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That's right , he did. Tc

Is it just me, or is that gssixgun I hear :rofl2: in the background? :)

Glen can speak for himself, but he has said he doesn't care whether others tape or not cause......."It doesn't matter"

just after I posted this thread, I found this one, boy those sub-heading forums are tricky :} http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...-theories.html

so for the most part, in actual use, we would probably never live long enough or shave enough to really notice a difference. of course there would be the exceptions, like a barber shaving 50 faces a day, or someone chasing the perfect angle.

throw in accidents like dropping the razor and damaging the edge, abuse from not drying it and not so good storage habits, and tape vs no tape seems to be one of the things that matter the least.

I do like it though for saving the wear on the spine while I practice. and for repairing or establishing new edges.

Relax. I’m certain Glen has no issues with me creating a little humor out of a subject that he has encountered since time immemorial.

His point was exactly the point of my jest — that it really does NOT matter — yet here we are once again debating the merits of tape versus no tape. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by bluesman7

Glen can speak for himself, but he has said he doesn't care whether others tape or not cause......."It doesn't matter"

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