Trying to gauge the right level of sharpness

Well yesterday was the 1st time I’ve ever honed an edge that was just way too sharp. I came off 5k to diamond slurry to tomo slurry on a size 100 Shoubodani. I cleaned it of and did water laps until the haze turned into a near mirror finish. It was one of those shaves that meant I couldn’t even breath wrong! I’ve spent some time shaving right off a carefully stropped 5k and that was very close to what I want but it’s just a bit short of my hypothetical target. I have a very small Dressante bout that I like but I don’t have an 8k or larger Coticule that I really like and I’m not sure how to bridge the gap between the 5k and the Dressante. Technically I could try the Norton 8k. The micron size is about the same as the Shapton Pro 5k but I still suspect the Norton may be a bit more keen than the Shapton 5k. Any other ideas guys?

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Originally Posted by lightfoot

It was one of those shaves that meant I couldn’t even breath wrong! I’ve spent some time shaving right off a carefully stropped 5k and that was very close to what I want but it’s just a bit short of my hypothetical target. I have a very small Dressante bout that I like but I don’t have an 8k or larger Coticule that I really like and I’m not sure how to bridge the gap between the 5k and the Dressante. Technically I could try the Norton 8k. The micron size is about the same as the Shapton Pro 5k but I still suspect the Norton may be a bit more keen than the Shapton 5k. Any other ideas guys?

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I'd suggest just concentrating on breathing "right" and keep it sharp as. Wait until after a few more shaves, you may like it best:gl:

I wouldn't worry about "too sharp," if that is a thing. The next couple of pre-shave stroppings should tame down the edge.

Ok. I didn’t really consider that. I’ll see if it calms down a bit. Otherwise I’m going to see what I can do with my Dressante. I enjoy my JNats but I’m still not able to dial in my edges off them exactly the way I want just yet.

Yeah, I know that I didn't really address your true question but the edge usually does mellow a bit after a few stropping/shaving sessions.

I'm not sure what to advise on the hones other than to keep experimenting. Maybe spend less time on the Shoubi. Alternatively, do more strokes until the water dries off the stone. You might find a new level of sharp!

I spent about 15 minutes doing water only laps. Maybe next time I’ll try cutting the time in half. I probably just overshot the sweet spot...

For myself, the harder the JNat, the less water only laps I do. I tend to get more comfortable edges from the very hard stones by finishing with slurry.

I do not know the hones you are using. I do however have a synthetic hone that produces a very prickly feeling edge. My solution is to use a different hone. If I go too far with my other hones, the edge can get prickly feeling. I can strop that out. I tend to be one of those guys that strops a lot anyway. Plain leather can mellow an edge very well. It does take some effort, or multiple shave and strop sessions as Ron already mentioned. There is also the option of very lightly taking the edge back on a thumb nail and refinishing it.

I'm with eKretz super hard stones finish on light tomo slurry. You can also try some strokes on the Dressante.

I,m not going to agree on too sharp, especially with your stones, I will say maybe just too toothy of an edge, or a wire edge that's just rough, it'll cut you for sure, but a keen smooth edge usually won't hurt you unless your technique shaving is off. As was mentioned a couple of good stropping sessions will tame a rough edge. If your finishing strokes are leaving a chippy edge then you need to address that issue TC

Im agreeing with these guys. Too sharp? Never herd of it! Id say use some magnification and get a good look at the edge. Like TC said, chips, toothy, these types of things will cause a rough shave.

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Originally Posted by Gasman

Im agreeing with these guys. Too sharp? Never herd of it! Id say use some magnification and get a good look at the edge. Like TC said, chips, toothy, these types of things will cause a rough shave.

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Guys I did check the edge repeatedly and I was happy to see that it was free of chips. I usually try to work “up” to an edge. I haven’t had to back an edge down before. I know that most of you may disagree but to me it was just over the top sharp. I’m usually in the “just sharp enough” camp for the most part. It’s going to be interesting to see how the edge mellows out over the next few shaves. Thanks for all the input so far everyone.

I found a scope that’s iOS compatible via WiFi. That would allow me to post some pics. It’s possible that you guys may see something I’m missing. But I just checked again and it still looks clear of a wire and/or chipped edge.

Ron has a quality scope that he uses regularly. It might have to be obvious for me to get it. Most of those scope pictures, I have no idea. 30x is as far as I ever go.

I'm afraid I have no answers only questions.
How is it too sharp?
Is it leaving weepers?
What razor is it ?

Just sharp enough is possibly not sharp enough for some of us. Might you need to review your angles & pressure ?

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

I'm afraid I have no answers only questions.
How is it too sharp?
Is it leaving weepers?
What razor is it ?

Just sharp enough is possibly not sharp enough for some of us. Might you need to review your angles & pressure ?

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It’s an unknown solingen razor. It had very little wear when it came it the mail some time ago. I’ve been SR shaving for around 3 years now and I have my technique reasonably well rehearsed. I’ve also been informed of the never ending pursuit of all that is keen here; )
I’ll be due for a shave tomorrow so I’ll report back after the fact.

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Originally Posted by lightfoot

It’s an unknown solingen razor. It had very little wear when it came it the mail some time ago. I’ve been SR shaving for around 3 years now and I have my technique reasonably well rehearsed. I’ve also been informed of the never ending pursuit of all that is keen here; )
I’ll be due for a shave tomorrow so I’ll report back after the fact.

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Just thinking, if all your other razors are good ,this one may be at fault.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Just thinking, if all your other razors are good ,this one may be at fault.

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I understand your logic. But the only thing is that I haven’t tried really maxing out any other razor like this. This might be worth trying out to have a few more examples to compare.

Sounds like a plan .
Of course, pics may still be helpful.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Sounds like a plan .
Of course, pics may still be helpful.

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Yeah I’m still not set up for that yet. I have a 20X dissecting scope that works for me but it’s quite likely that better magnification could reveal another explanation as opposed to just being too sharp. But the shave was deadly close but only slightly uncomfortable. There were a couple of weepers too. I’ve just never had weepers before with such a negligible amount of contact.

If the razor still has the same edge. Try this. Give it 5-7 dry strokes on your Jnat then strop & shave test.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

If the razor still has the same edge. Try this. Give it 5-7 dry strokes on your Jnat then strop & shave test.

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I’ll keep this in mind. I’d like to know more about using dry hones. But heres the thing, before I do anything else with this razor I’ve decided to send it to drmatt357 so he can determine whether or not I have a legitimately sharp edge or if it’s a foil/wire issue. If that’s the case a lot of this will come to naught if I’ve misinterpreted the edge feel. I know there are many members that would look at what’s going on but Matt is over hear on the east coast as far as I know so shipping time should be minimal and we already have a bit of rapport. It may turn out that there’s an issue I just can’t see with a 20X scope. I’ll keep everyone posted.

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Originally Posted by lightfoot

I’ll keep this in mind. I’d like to know more about using dry hones. But heres the thing, before I do anything else with this razor I’ve decided to send it to drmatt357 so he can determine whether or not I have a legitimately sharp edge or if it’s a foil/wire issue. If that’s the case a lot of this will come to naught if I’ve misinterpreted the edge feel. I know there are many members that would look at what’s going on but Matt is over hear on the east coast as far as I know so shipping time should be minimal and we already have a bit of rapport. It may turn out that there’s an issue I just can’t see with a 20X scope. I’ll keep everyone posted.

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Before sending it out check this vid out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZYFsOP7rBc#t=138

You may be able to determine for yourself if you have a foil/wire edge.

Bob

Thanks for the video. I just checked and Matt is in AZ and not on the east coast just FYI.

My wife's inlaws have moved to Bogart, GA and we will be driving down there to visit them some time this summer. I intend to arrange a meet-up for when we go and I will be bringing along my microscope and video setup. If you have not solved all things honing by then maybe you will want to come!

My scope doesn't have drmatt's magnification, but his doesn't have my scope's resolution.

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Originally Posted by BobH

Before sending it out check this vid out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZYFsOP7rBc#t=138

You may be able to determine for yourself if you have a foil/wire edge.

Bob

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That test will find a big burr if it's pointed off to one side or the other, but a tiny wire that's aligned nearly straight will not be detected using that method.

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Originally Posted by lightfoot

I’ll keep this in mind. I’d like to know more about using dry hones. But heres the thing, before I do anything else with this razor I’ve decided to send it to drmatt357 so he can determine whether or not I have a legitimately sharp edge or if it’s a foil/wire issue. If that’s the case a lot of this will come to naught if I’ve misinterpreted the edge feel. I know there are many members that would look at what’s going on but Matt is over hear on the east coast as far as I know so shipping time should be minimal and we already have a bit of rapport. It may turn out that there’s an issue I just can’t see with a 20X scope. I’ll keep everyone posted.

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I haven't a clue about using dry stones but I do know that a wire or burr can be removed on the prior or next stone.
If you're at the final stone & have created a micro wire the dry stone will act finer than wet or with slurry.
5 strokes shows how little you may need to do at this stage.

On the other foot an uncomfortable edge can be one that has not had enough time on the mid range stones.
In that case you are shaving with a somewhat polished 1k edge. Going back to a 4-5k stone can be a solution.
Of course knowing what to look for is the key. I'm not one for nuking all previous scratches but a 1k bevel & a 5k bevel should look different ie more polish on the 5k. If there is any haziness left near the edge, you need to continue on the 5k. Haziness at the shoulder of the bevel is ok but mid bevel to the edge there must be an obvious and even polish. If you have a light touch you will see the bevel improve at the edge before the shoulder.

I’ve been having trouble posting on this thread today. Anyway I did a Coticule edge today and it turned out very much to my liking. Very mild yet more than sharp enough for the job. I think I may be on the right track......(for now at least)

Sounds like you found a smiling clairvoyant :p

You guys are making me die a slow death. Cut it out! :roflmao

Sorry! Official apology!

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Originally Posted by tcrideshd

I,m not going to agree on too sharp, especially with your stones, I will say maybe just too toothy of an edge, or a wire edge that's just rough, it'll cut you for sure, but a keen smooth edge usually won't hurt you unless your technique shaving is off. As was mentioned a couple of good stropping sessions will tame a rough edge. If your finishing strokes are leaving a chippy edge then you need to address that issue TC

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Here’s the brutal truth about a couple of edges. Surprisingly the worst looking edge was the better shaving razor which was finished on a Coticule under running water. The one with all the pronounced chips was the weeper edge...
https://youtu.be/91Y2ete8un8

Cool, what is the scale? I can see "50.0um" in the bottom-left but I don't see an accompanying length.

Oh, is it that flickering part just to the left?

Video removed already?

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Originally Posted by eKretz

Video removed already?

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I reposted it. There was some confusion as to who’s edge it was. In the reloaded video I made it much clearer that the photos were of my work and not his. I’ll post a link to the new video
https://youtu.be/XVffsTw5dWE

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Originally Posted by jehler

Cool, what is the scale? I can see "50.0um" in the bottom-left but I don't see an accompanying length.

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I’m not sure about the length unfortunately. Thanks

My biggest challenge now is trying to reduce the margin of poor apex Integrity in the absence of proper magnification. Would joining the edge periodically throughout the progression followed by recovering the edge help safeguard against this?

You don't really need to joint the edge, just stay on your 1k till the larger chips are gone. You can easily see them with your 20x loupe by changing your viewing angles to catch the light or even by looking at the silhouette of the blade against a light source, not too bright of course for obvious reasons. I only use 8-10x & can always catch faults like that, & you can even see divots in the bevel that have not chipped when they catch the light.

As to apex integrity, the lighter your honing the better, yes, even at bevel set try reducing your pressure. I have seen a guy chip a honed edge by heavy stropping. The only reason he didn't roll the edge was due to how hard the steel was. Older razors which may have some rust compromised steel are prone to this.