2nd Attempt at Honing

A few weeks back I posted a thread about my first attempt at honing. Other than a small chip, that little KAMA was simple to hone and came out very sharp.

My 2nd honing attempt has not been quite so simple. ;)

I picked up three antique store razors this week: an Oxford, a Lee's Warranted, and a Keen Kutter.

I decided to try the Oxford first. It had some minor chipping in the bevel, so I followed the advice in a thread I found here, and I dulled/killed the edge to get a fresh start.

After that, I couldn't seem to set a good bevel. It just wouldn't get sharp. I found a vid online which suggested that old razors tend to have worn spines, so multiple layers of tape can be necessary. I tried 3 layers of tape, and suddenly it started to sharpen up.

I have Naniwa hones, and took it through the 1k, 5k, 8k, 12k, and then Shapton 16k. I finished with .5 and .25 diamond spray, and then some stropping. It was popping arm hairs and felt sharp, so I tried shaving with it.

Unfortunately, while it can shave, it certainly wasn't the best shave. The KAMA I honed a few weeks back cuts through whiskers much more efficiently.

So what's the next step for this not-quite shave ready razor? The 3 layers of tape apparently worked, do I try that again and continue to try to set a better bevel? Should I try some of the higher grit stones and just try to refine it somewhat? Experiment with another layer of tape (or one less) to see what happens?

Also, is there a way to tell how far a spine has been worn, and how many layers of tape might be needed, or is that a trial and error situation? For example, is there a standard spine width, and is there a relationship between spine and blade width to get a proper bevel angle?

Thanks!

Worn spines should have worn edges too. Unless there is something very wrong with the razor, you never should need three layers of tape. How much hone wear is there?

Killing the edge before starting honing is about equivalent to breaking your leg before starting to train for a marathon. What is the point in dulling an edge that you are trying to sharpen?

If you are not happy with the shave, then you can try honing on a midrange hone, but the odds are that the bevel set is not complete. You actually can shave off of a 1k hone's edge. If you cannot, then the odds are low that your work on the higher grit hones will fix it.

Have you looked at the bevel under magnification e.g. loupe, microscope? Have you inked the edge to see where and how you are progressing? I agree with Utopian - If the bevel isn't completely set your efforts are for nil. Good luck hope you succeed!

As far as spine to blade width ratio goes, yes there is a standard ratio. The range is from 3.5-4.0 to 1.0

I agree the bevel may be lacking but did you strop it with 3 layers of tape ? Wondering if the edge actually met leather.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

As far as spine to blade width ratio goes, yes there is a standard ratio. The range is from 3.5-4.0 to 1.0

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Note that the width should be the 'active width' in other words from the edge to the upper most spot on the spine that still touches the hone.

Thanks for the replies, folks.

Sounds like I used too much tape (I was also concerned what how that would affect stropping). I'll drop it down a layer and try again. It didn't want to sharpen up at all with one layer, and took off when I added more layers, but that could be a correlation vs causation issue.

Also, would a set of calipers be something to invest in?

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Originally Posted by sonnythehooligan

Also, would a set of calipers be something to invest in?

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In my opinion yes. They only cost $10-$15

I have honed several Oxford razors and don't see any reason why you would need more than one layer of tape unless something is quite wrong with it. Is there any chance that you could post photos of the razor?

When you killed/dulled the edge did you do so to the point that the chipping also disappeared? If you did that it will take quite some time on a 1K to really reset the bevel with one layer of tape on the spine. You have to get the bevels to meet at the edge all along the blade to have a bevel set. It does not matter how much you polish the bevels if they have not met to form an edge.

Bob

BobH, that's exactly what happened. Sounds like I might have some work ahead of me then.

Utopian, I'll try to get some pics of it later.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sonnythehooligan

BobH, that's exactly what happened. Sounds like I might have some work ahead of me then.

Utopian, I'll try to get some pics of it later.

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Well, then just use one layer of tape and be patient on the 1K till you get a true bevel set. Be sure and put a new layer of tape on when you see the old one showing signs of wear. Don't try to hurry things along using too much weight on the blade either. Good luck.

Bob

One layer of tape is very important to new honers. It prevents hamfisted honing that wears the spine faster than the edge. The spine needs to be in contact with the hone but not pressed to the hone. The pressure should be emphasized on the edge. Meets are great places to get the subtle techniques of honing.

If you have to kill an edge for chips, don't bread-knife unless absolutely necessary. Instead of 90 degrees off the spine try 30-45 degrees off the spine, that way there is less bevel reset needed and less metal to remove

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sonnythehooligan

It didn't want to sharpen up at all with one layer, and took off when I added more layers, but that could be a correlation vs causation issue.

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The more tape the less steel to remove to form an apex. You would get there with no tape or one layer but it would take more time & depending on the razor may give you large looking bevels. Did someone say pics would be helpful ? ;)

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Ok, hopefully these will help. I've taken it back to one layer of tape. I do believe it is making a bit of progress. I'll work on it tonight, but I'll keep an eye on this thread in case you guys see something I should try differently for this razor.

FYI, Someone asked earlier if I was us a loupe. I am, but all I really know to look for so far are the little chips an edge can have. This one has a edge free of chips for now.

The more tape the less steel to remove to form an apex.

Interesting. I figured there must be a reason for why the razor reacted the way it did to the tape. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by sonnythehooligan

but all I really know to look for so far are the little chips an edge can have. This one has a edge free of chips for now.

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The loupe will show you exactly what parts of the bevel are and are not being cut by the honing stroke. This allows you to see the progress that you are, or are not, making in refining the bevels and the edge. Seeing this allows you to make adjustments.

The hone wear shown in the photo suggests that you do only need one layer of tape.

https://straightrazorpalace.com/honi...ggestions.html
There are some good pictures in this thread. The method I use to see the bevel set is to look almost straight down on the apex. Any shiny spots, white lines or obvious thickness in the apex and it is not set. Once the apex is very difficult to see and all of the error messages disappear it is time to move up. Then I judge by how the side of the bevel looks.

A sharpy marker is a handy tool to have as well. darken the edge and take a couple laps then check to see if you are making even contact along the edge. If not then find out why and adjust accordingly. If you use a loupe getting the light to hit it just right can help you see when the apex is made. A set bevel should shave along the whole edge. Setting the bevel is %99 percent of the work.

Ok, I can definitely say that the razor shaves great now. Thanks for the advice everyone!

The first razor that I honed went fairly quick and simple, but I didn't learn much from it. This one was more difficult but that process taught me a few things, which is what I need at this point.

With that in mind, I'm wondering what's the best route to finding blades to practice on. I know some folks advocate learning on Gold Dollars, but I tend to like vintage razors (I'm also interested in learning to restore them).

I visited a number of antique stores last week and mostly struck out, so I was wondering if anyone has tried just buying a "lot" off eBay. I've seen a few listings where the majority of the razors seem to be in fixable shape.

There are not any antiques stores in my area. I got most of my razors from trades, private sales like the classifieds, and eBay. It takes a while to get used to shopping by crappy pictures. Not that many sellers on eBay know how to photograph a razor well to properly represent it. There is also a handful that are very good at hiding stuff in pictures. You have to accept that you will buy a few dogs. There is an old thread called eBay 101 or something like that. It’s very educational. Look and if you aren’t sure ask someone here in a PM that you think will be able to analyze the sale for you. Gold dollars are a terrible place to learn. They are known to have issues and if you are trying to learn to hone those ones are counter productive. You are looking for nice solid razors without any issues. I learned on NOS vintage razors, however there are not many around and they are all fairly pricey, but if you use tape and common sense they will be fine.