Dipping my toes into naturals. Thanks to JP5

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There are many very informative posts on our site about Arkie's. But thought I would add my experience so far with my new stone. In the hopes that it adds to the site in a positive way.
I have been very happy with my results thus far with my Gokumyo 20K and Norton 4/8K setup. They allow me go from bevel set to a very nice edge. And it is very repeatable/reliable for me. An accomplishment which would not be possible without this site and all of the many people that fill it with priceless tips, tricks and knowledge.
But like many of us. We get to reading and thinking about that "perfect for us" edge. Sharp and smooth. That just melts the whiskers off our faces. And leaves us with the feeling that we have achieved shaving nirvana.
With the purchase of my Korrat 14 2.0 . My RAD has been for the time being, been satisfied. My Razorock Rubberset replica. Has become my go to brush. And from the first stroke my SRD Red Latigo strop has been a joy to use.
Soaps and aftershaves are also at a point that I have a good variety that check off all my boxes.
Then browsing our forum. I see JP5's post for a Arkansas Translucent for a very fair price. So as a Fathers Day present to myself. I fire off a message to Joshua. And a couple of days later it's on my front porch.
His pics and post were 100% accurate. The stone was new and unused. Dead flat and both sides had a "frosted glass" type finish to them. So I set about burnishing one side, with a 1 inch chisel. Using moderate/heavy pressure. It took about an hour of elbow grease to get to where I thought it was ready to try using on a razor.
My Koraat after a couple of weeks of daily use was starting to pull slightly. And after about a 1/2 hour of steady strokes with water and little lather. Felt it begin to stick to the hone. Shave test was improved over previous shave. Smooth and comfortable. But not as sharp as the 20k but still very good.
I am going to burnish it some more and have another go with the Koraat. Don't think I have found the full potential with this stone. And my quick success is a testament to the post on here that I read and used to good effect. Thanks JP5 and the forum.
Ken

Very good Ken. I too picked up the trany from Joshua. Im going to spend some time next weekend burnishing/lapping. Want to make this sucker smooth as glass if i can. I used mine once with the factory lapping and yes it was flat, but not as smooth as i thought it should be. I had a good shave but not as keen as i like my edges to be. So a couple hours next week will be working the devil out of this stone to get the most from it. Thanks to Benz for the info he sent me on working this stone. I got a good feeling about the Arkie, Trany!

Ok second go round with the Arkie was an improvement. The blade feels sharper. While still retaining the smoothness. It is a keeper for sure. Have a feeling the learning curve while steep to begin with flattens out quickly. It will be difficult to exceed the comfort I felt this shave. If any of you are thinking about getting a translucent from Dan's. I would say it is worth it. If this stone works as well on my other razors as it did with the Koraat. Then I will be very happy with it.
My $.02 Ken.

Not many naturals can match the smoothness AND keenness of an Arkansas edge. They can be difficult to master but worth the effort in order to get consistent edges quickly. For example, you can use pressure and “half strokes” to speed them up considerably but too much pressure and it is counter productive to say the least.

Actually after thinking about all that I had read about them. Being very slow. And from my first attempt. I thought I would do a bunch of circle laps to see what it would do. As I would normally do to set a bevel. I try to stay away from pressure during honing as most of my razors are extra hollow.

Thanks for posting your results! I'm glad you like it. After reading Steel's past posts on Arks I've become interested in them as hones. Especially how he hones some blades using only Arks. The fact Arks are a "local" resource is something else I find appealing.
If you have a meat cleaver that needs sharpening that would be a productive way to get some more burnishing done.
Please keep us posted on your progress with the stone.

https://straightrazorpalace.com/hone...true-hard.html

Something to ponder.

That thread came up on my searches. Good info on there. Helped me to pull the trigger on Josh’s stone. I was on the fence as Dans site lists the black trans as “ultra fine”.
I believe this stone will do just as well as a black one would.
Ken

Steve Kirschmann told me at my field trip visit there 1) for our purposes with straight razors, or knives, there is no distinguishable difference between the three categories of True Hard, Hard Black, Translucent; 2) other scientific industries use the Translucent or Hard Black and require those technical differences. As Steve said, the only real difference is color.

Enjoy and don’t break your wrists burnishing. Ain’t necessary for even the best razor results.

Think I’m done burnishing the one side of the hone. Basically it’s shiny and has a smooth “waxy” feel when running a razor down it. I left the other side alone. None of my razors need major work. But sometimes guys at work come across razors and bring them to me. A month ago I was given a Felt Pad Razor Works Razor. In fair shape. But i already honed it up.
Whenever something needs more than a touch up. I’ll try that side out and see how it does.

I spent 3 hours starting from 120 grit W/D paper and worked my way up to 800 grit W/D paper. The side I did this too has a glossy finish when I hold it up to a light and look at reflections off the stone. I then went backward (I found out) and started with a thick oil and working to thin. :gaah: It gave a nice edge but not as keen as I thought it should have been. I asked some questions and found that I needed to start thin and work to thick. After rehoning the razor on the arkie with the proper order of oil thickness I got a keen edge that was almost as keen as my 12K stone gives (If I had to put a number to it id say 8K+) but felt more comfortable like as if it couldn't cut me. Scary thought, as you know it can!

So I'm now learning a bit more about this stone and its giving a nice edge without a lot of crazy learning of the stone. BTW, I used Balistol and water mainly. But finishing on Neetsfoot oil. Just what I had handy. I might try the WD-40 to start with next time.

Gasman, I’m confused. In all my reading on Arkansas stones, I’ve never read anything about varying thicknesses of oil. I’ve read about people using either mineral oil, WD-40, kerosene, etc., but not going from thin to thick. Please elucidate and educated.

My uderstanding is, starting with thin oils will allow the stone to cut/polish harder. Then when you work with thicker oils it put the slightest buffer between the stone and steel, inturn with your light touch it give it even a lighter touch to the stone. Refines the edge just a little more.

Now im no pro honer, its just info ive collected and have be using on natural stones. I wouldnt be using soap or oil on synthetic stones so please dont make that mistake. Ive read of dish soap and even windex being used.

Sure. I have done this. With smiths, ballistol, or any other water soluble oil you can vary the viscosity which will affect how the stone cuts. I have started with plain water on my black Arkansas and slowly added ballistol with great results.

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Originally Posted by Gasman

I spent 3 hours starting from 120 grit W/D paper and worked my way up to 800 grit W/D paper. The side I did this too has a glossy finish when I hold it up to a light and look at reflections off the stone. I then went backward (I found out) and started with a thick oil and working to thin. :gaah: It gave a nice edge but not as keen as I thought it should have been. I asked some questions and found that I needed to start thin and work to thick. After rehoning the razor on the arkie with the proper order of oil thickness I got a keen edge that was almost as keen as my 12K stone gives (If I had to put a number to it id say 8K+) but felt more comfortable like as if it couldn't cut me. Scary thought, as you know it can!

So I'm now learning a bit more about this stone and its giving a nice edge without a lot of crazy learning of the stone. BTW, I used Balistol and water mainly. But finishing on Neetsfoot oil. Just what I had handy. I might try the WD-40 to start with next time.

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The more you use your Arkansas stone, the more you will burnish it. As you burnish them, they become better finishers. I have been using a 12k naniwa super stone BEFORE my black Arkansas and the surgical black has improved the edge,without fail, every time so far.

Have you tried reversing the order and following the Arkansas with the Naniwa?

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Originally Posted by ace

Have you tried reversing the order and following the Arkansas with the Naniwa?

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No sir! That, my friend, is on the agenda this morning. About to shave with that order now and will report back.

So, per our conversation yesterday Ace, I tried the 12k after the Arkansas just now. I wasn’t very hopeful only because the HHT clearly showed a difference in favor of the Arkansas. The shave test revealed the same. Not as effective or smooth. Not to say it was a bad shave. It wasn’t. It was a great shave. Just not as close and slight irritation. Both edges were shave ready.

To be honest though, as everyone here knows, I don’t have a lot of experience with synthetics and have used Arkansas stones exclusively on razors for a few years now. So there is that-along with the fact that because of this my Arkansas stone has seen hundreds of razors and thousands of laps making it highly burnished. At any rate, for me and my stone, there is a noticeable difference in feel and results with the edge given to the Black Arkansas. (Puns all over the place here)

Where that 12k shines for me though is the speed! It is an amazing stone that gets me 95% there in minimal strokes. Plus the bevel is a mirror! With minimal effort on the Arkansas I then have a wonderfully sharp and smooth edge.

Now on to a Gokumyo 20k edge but I will have to post in a different thread as I have maybe derailed the focus here a bit.

Thanks for doing that test and reporting Steel. Great info. I jeed to use my Arkansas stone more, but its so hard to do when i got the 20k and know its going to rock and edge without lots of effort. Will be looking for your next post with the 20k.

Just had my shave with a Hollow W&B. My favorite grind and size. It had been finished on the Trans Arkie. The shave was keen, but still not as keen as the 20K edges I've been getting. With my standard shaving steps, I still came out clean and comfortable. Put the Alum to use and it was just like my standard shave. Nothing different in the outcome of the shave but, Just didn't feel as keen. I think that the Arkie does a fine job and its just a FEEL that is different. Maybe after I've had a couple dozen more blades across the stone, it will burnish more and get a bit finer of an edge.

I'm in no way saying that the Arkie is not doing its job. It was just more work getting there. And to a person like me that just don't know when to stop honing, this isn't a bad thing. I'm still leaning towards the 20K. For now!

Arkansas stones can require some practice, effort, and learning. The 20k is pretty much fool proof. It all depends on what you want. Do you love to figure things out? The lure of natural rocks vs man made, the pride of learning an advanced system? Or do you enjoy consistent, easy edges, without much effort involved? I don’t know that one is “better” than the other. One is “better “ for me though. I can see why the 20k gets so much love but I can also see why some knuckleheads are in love with a natural Rock. I have been romancing the Stone since I began. I don’t think this 20k stone will change that BUT you never know.

Glad to see you're making progress with the ark Jerry. I guess I'll be honing vicariously for the time being.

Jerry, you mentioned the edge being less keen than the 20k. Do you feel like it was any smoother or more comfortable?

I think the best thing i can say is it felt different. Almost as if the edge was rounded and not sharp. But we know it was sharp. It cut my whiskers just fine. So i guess you could call it a more comfortable feel. I think i enjoy a comfortable sha e with a keen feeling edge more. I like the feel of the sharpness and the G20k gives me this and smoother than just the 12k stone.

The 12k stone is a great finisher. But to me, it can leave a harsh feeling edge. The G20k seems to smooth that out. When it come to sharp, at this level its hard to say one is sharper than the other. I think its more in the feel you get.

So the Arkie was keen as it cut very well but didnt feel as keen. The 12k cuts well but feels a bit harsh if you give it many laps. And the 20k smooths out the 12k, gives a smoother edge and keeps the keen feel.

YMMV, but this is what im coming up with. For now! :rofl2:

Hope that helps and dont confuse. And as always... JMO!

You also have to keep in mind that 8ve only honed 3 razors on the Arkie so far.

Thanks for posting your thoughts. I know it can be difficult to articulate the minute differences in edges finished with different stones. Maybe after it gets broken in you'll like it even better. Sounds like they would be a good finisher for someone who wanted a large natural Stone that didn't cost $300.

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Originally Posted by JP5

Thanks for posting your thoughts. I know it can be difficult to articulate the minute differences in edges finished with different stones. Maybe after it gets broken in you'll like it even better. Sounds like they would be a good finisher for someone who wanted a large natural Stone that didn't cost $300.

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+1. Well said. The end Shave results with a Arkansas edge and a Gok20 are identical for me. If you are coming off a respectable 8,10, or 12k edge, a Translucent/Black Arkansas are pretty easy stones to use with consistent results providing you prep them right. An ALL arkansas progression is a different story but just as a finishing stone they are o e of the most effective that I have used. Unfortunately the prices on them have went up the past few years though. I picked up my 8X2x1 translucent years back for $80. They are closer to $200 for that size now unless you find them in the wild.

That is a beautiful stone!
If I was buying an Arkansas finisher only, I think I would be disappointed. Especially if I was shaving with edges off a Gokumyo 20K (I never have but I'm guessing sweet). I've never used other hones so my perspective is limited. IME, when an edge gets to the point a pasted strop is not refreshing, its going to take a lot of time on the trans to get it comfortable again. I go to my hard ark first (left burnished from the last use) and do maybe 20-50 light passes. Then to the trans, maybe a couple hundred passes. I always finish on a crox pasted strop and then leather. I love the shaves from my arkies. I've shaved with some great edges from some skilled honers and an arkie edge, from bevel set to finish, does not feel like a 12K edge. But it is every bit as comfortable (personally, I think more comfortable). They take time to figure out (without the help from members here, I'd still be struggling with them), but are great hones.
Love my arks

I don’t know the condition of your (OP) stone, it looks fairly new. Before you invest a lot of time and effort burnishing, check to make sure it is flat and smooth, use a straight edge and light.

Rub the stone dry on a piece of 600 -1k on a flat surface. Hold it up to the light and you will see any imperfections. You will have to lap those out for a perfect, smooth surface or no amount of burnishing will matter.

Lap with loose Silicone Oxide, if bad or wet and dry and water on a steel cookie sheet until flat and shiny up to 2k wet and dry. Once flat it goes quickly to smooth.

Now burnish with a wide chisel or large knife with pressure. I like a large carbon steel cleaver, I can use both hands and apply a lot of pressure.

Burnishing is done in small sections, working a 1x1.5 in section, depending on your tool steel. It is more like scraping steel, working small overlapping sections. OX Tools has some good post on scraping steel. Once you have burnished the whole face, do over lapping 2-inch strokes, then full length to blend the whole surface.

Working methodically over a stone is more effective than randomly rubbing a stone. 30 min to an hour should produce a very nice polished stone face. You only have to burnish it once, it’s good for life and will only get smoother with use.

Then you have to learn your stone, with arks the lubricant and pressure make a big difference. I like water and Smith’s Honing oil or Ballistol, some folks don’t like the smell of Ballistol, I do. Pressure is something you have to figure out, as arks work better for me with more pressure than most stones at finishing.

High grit natural finishers are different from synthetic stones, probably because of the random variety of grit types and sizes. Where synthetics are very uniform. The randomness produces the hazy finish and a super micro chipped edge. Synthetics a uniform stria pattern and laser straight edge. One can really see this on film, where we are dealing with a thin layer of very uniform grit that leave a machine-like stria pattern.

So, the edges they produce are very different, add in variables like razor steel, skin, beard type and honing technique, it is no wonder that the “feel” is very subjective.

For me an Ark edge is very different from other stones, one that I enjoy. I like an ark edge off of a near stria free, 8k Naniwia Snow White (white box) stropped on linen and leather.

Lots of great posts and info.
The stone as it came from Dans is flat and true both sides.
I just needed to prep the one side.
I am enjoying playing with it.
Thanks for all the input and tips. They are most helpful.
Ken.

"Pressure is something you have to figure out, as arks work better for me with more pressure than most stones at finishing."I agree with Euclid/Marty on this one-I find myself using considerably more blade torque on my SB and Trans Arks (both of which are smooth as glass) than I do on other finishers, which I have mostly abandoned in favor of my Arks. Most of my blades are at least quarter hollow, fairly beefy, or even near-wedges, so obviously you wouldn't be able to torque as much on a full or singing hollow. But that reasonable amount of pressure makes an otherwise painfully long Arkie session go much more quickly, and I haven't damaged an edge yet doing this; like Marty says, you have to go by feel on your stone under your hands. I'm not into hundreds of x-strokes myself, which is what has turned many razor honers off from finishing with Arks.

Just add the next level of lubricant as it starts to stick or dig-in. I am also experimenting with the "thin to thick" lube progression on an Ark, as I outlined in post #234 in Hone of the Day. As others mentioned, I too have enjoyed excellent edges off the G20; in fact, I once finished all my edges with one thanks to Ron/Utopian at the Asheville meet in 2014.

But like many of you, I just enjoy tinkering around with the naturals-something about getting a lazer-sharp edge off a rock that is millions of years old that someone pulled out of the earth is just a cool feeling, isn't it?

Yesterday I tried Aaron's dry to oil progression and knew immediately it was superior to how I had been finishing my razors. Today's shave confirmed that. Straight from the stone to leather, no crox (I had gotten into the habit of just finishing on the crox strop).
Absolutely stoked. Now to the rest of the rotation. I do want to try this minus the final oil step; stop after the dish soap just for giggles.
I like to say that everything I've learned about shaving with a straight I learned from the Palace and its members. Why this place is invaluable.
Thank you,
Paul