Another honing question

When i finshing honing a blade, go to the strop for many passes, then test shave and find my edge is not quite what i was looking for i will go back to the stone. At this point i notice that the edge is not undercutting water any more. Im thinking that this is because of the action of the strop. Is this right?

So at this point, i have to do a lot of laps on a stone before it undercuts the water again. So ive found i need to step back a couple stones and work my way back up to my finisher. But, i hear others saying just a few more laps to refine the edge and test shave again. But if its not undercutting the water, what good is doing just a few laps as this is showing the edge is not tou hing the stone?

What is your opinion on this and how do you overcome this issue? Kill the edge lightly? Im just trying to figure out all the little details nowadays. Thanks to all the guys here that have been honing for years and years, it has helped me to skip a lot of the mistakes made and learned by others and for me to learn faster. Or, at least, to learn with less errors of the tinyest kind. Who would have known that there were so many little details when it comes to honing.

You need to clean the blade WELL the strop has oils the soaps and creams have fats, this can effect the under cutting

So make sure of that before you start doing crazy stuff :)

Good point! Thanks Glen, I hadn't thought of that.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

You need to clean the blade WELL the strop has oils the soaps and creams have fats, this can effect the under cutting

So make sure of that before you start doing crazy stuff :)

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Jerry, I use a little isopropyl alcohol on a microfiber cloth, and wipe just the blade edge.
It does make a difference.

Paul

I will give this a try the next time.
So I'm guessing that other folks don't find this same situation after coming off a strop and back to the stone?

You could try changing your stropping action.
Really taught strop and super light laps slowly as to avoid and problems on the turn.
Just a thought..

Somewhere I read that if you hone your razor, strop it and then go back once again to your finishing hone, you can get an even better edge. However, I do not remember where I read it.

Also, a tiny amount of slurry changes the surface tension of the water making it undercut easier. Think about how you're comparing undercutting. After stropping you are expecting undercutting immediately. When honing you don't expect it until you've been on the stone a little while. I'm saying that after you have been on the stone a little while a tiny amount of auto slurry is lowering the surface tension.

I'm not sure if I'm getting what Glen said but is this it...
The water somewhat "runs" from the edge, due to the oils on the blade? Thus causing the ability to see the undercut which prevents determining the quality of the edge in such a way?
Would a dot of dish soap fix this?
Though I would assum careful wiping of blade with alcohol..

From what I assumed I understood, the bevel created by a strop (not as flat a bevel as a stone creates), that this a a minimal amount of steel removed and so technically the edge will not touch the stone at first, BUT this lack of connection will not last long even on a finisher given the very small amount of steel removed by strop.

So removing all the oils first, then the undercut should show the moment that edge is right.

Am I correct? I'm still learning.
Great thread Jerry! These questions always help to enrich my growing understanding, even small questions, as this one never entered my mind.

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Originally Posted by MikeT

I'm not sure if I'm getting what Glen said but is this it...

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What Glen is saying is eliminate the simple stuff first,,, before assuming it is more complicated :)

When you are tweaking the edge at the end, you want to make small corrections, so you are just adjusting the very fin of the edge, once you drop a level then you have erased what you had and are starting over..
Keeping in mind that could have been the right decision,, but you won't know that if you don't try the small stuff first


Does that help ???

I do not put a lot of value in watching the water, because it just means the bevel is flat on the stone. But it does not tell you if the whole bevel is flat, or if the bevels are meeting fully.

Yes, it can be an indicator, as can the feel or sound, but why not look at it and remove all doubt. Keep it simple, as said do the small things first and be systematic in your approach. Systematic equals repeatable results.

Look at the bevels from the side, for even stria pattern, (and no deep stria reaching the edge) across the whole bevel from heel to toe and especially at the edge, are you honing to the edge. Then look straight down on the edge with light and magnification. If you see any shinny reflection, the bevels are not meeting fully. This take just seconds to do.

More importantly, if the razor did not shave well, there is more going on. Find out what that is. Is it a honing or stropping issue?

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

What Glen is saying is eliminate the simple stuff first,,, before assuming it is more complicated :)

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Oh! You must be referring to OCCAM'S RAZOR :roflmao

Watch that spelling Vic. You know it makes a big difference to me. NOT.

MikeT., i think your on the right track. I can see after a bit of oil or grease being on the bevel or edge it would push the water away and not allow it to go over the edge. This is what ive been seeing and it was taking a lot of laps 20 to 30 or more, or dropping down in stones before it would start undercutting again. But at that point im building up slurry, ans as Vic said, slurry makes it easier to undercut the water/slurry mix. Straight water is harder to undercut.

Thanks Glen. It goes back to the KISS. Keep is simple stupid! Start with the basics. Clean the damn thing off!

Euclid, i will bring my loupe and usb microscope back into my honing. I used to get very critical on what i seen so i cut back. But now ive learned more so maybe i should go back the look some more. The basics like the shinny spots or larger scratches left behind from a couple stones back are the basics. At this point in my honing learning im past this, but looking at the bevel to be sure about the stria being completely even/uniform, is what ive been lacking.

I feel its these little things that a honer needs to refine and learn how to deal with. This is what makes for a more perfect, always right edges. Its easy to over look some things and the more a person hones, and fails, or wants to get better and even more perfect edges, the more of these little things pop up. Im going to try and get some time this evening for the stones. I will test this idea of oil and grease on the edge after the strop. That would be the simplest fix.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

...snip...

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Lately I've noticed how much I appreciate your clear and scientific explanations, much appreciated!
Thank you sir! :)

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Originally Posted by JBHoren

Oh! You must be referring to OCCAM'S RAZOR :roflmao

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That was awesome! Lol
I usually don't get this kind of humor... raised in a British colony yet never understood what some call English humor... also Dad jokes...
I got it this time!
I'm all grown up now... sweet!
:beer1:

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Originally Posted by Gasman

Watch that spelling Vic. You know it makes a big difference to me. NOT.

.

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:rofl2: I didn't know if you would catch that. Now I know that you read the fine print.:rofl2:

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Originally Posted by JBHoren

Oh! You must be referring to OCCAM'S RAZOR :roflmao

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Originally Posted by MikeT

That was awesome! Lol
I usually don't get this kind of humor... raised in a British colony yet never understood what some call English humor... also Dad jokes...
I got it this time!
I'm all grown up now... sweet!
:beer1:

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Yes, that was a good one JB!

The joke is beyond me. Sorry guys i will have to google it. :(

Vic, i dont normally read the fine print, but it was long so it caught my eye. Normally folks use one or two words. Glad i seen it.

Ok, i asked the wife and she explained it to me. Dammit! I guess im just a bit slow and ... ill leave that open for people to think about.

I never got the Occam's Razor thing either, Jerry. :rofl2:
Never looked it up.
Fill a brother in, willya? :shrug:
I suppose I COULD Googl it, yet that is no fun!

The wife said something about the Easier path being the right path. That was a few hours ago so I'm a little fuzzy on it right now. Thanks, Tom, I don't feel so stupid now. I hated school so I forgot most of it. What I remember is what I have needed to know again in life.

Oh well....Reckon I shall have to google it.....
Watch out for 'Occam's Razor' references! ;)

"Occam's Razor" -- Simplest solution is usually the preferred/best solution. Wiki credits this as a philosophical method, but I'm pretty sure the principle applied equally to math/science (says the retired nerd) from my recall.

:chop:

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Originally Posted by Speedster

"Occam's Razor" -- Simplest solution is usually the preferred/best solution. Wiki credits this as a philosophical method, but I'm pretty sure the principle applied equally to math/science (says the retired nerd) from my recall.

:chop:

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Right up there with KISS

As I understand it, Occam's Razor stipulates that the potential solution with the least variables and assumptions is the preferable first mode of investigation (not necessarily the best), as this makes it easier to determine the effect these variables have on the end result and makes (scientific) repeatability easier, i.e. going with the most easily testable method/solution first.

This book is about probability theory, but I like the cover:

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