Experience with Naniwa + Coticule

I took up a couple of razors that I knew I had a bevel set on that were laying in boxes for maybe a year now. Because I had trouble on it in the past.

Simply put, I did a very simple progressions of Naniwa 8K -> Naniwa 12K -> Coticule under running water only until things feel "sticky"

It works like a charm and has consistently put the same edge on 6 different razors. It's not complicated and it didn't take long either.

It's not a new idea but it does a mighty fine job. Enough work on the 8k and 12k helped a lot, 12k might've been overkill before a Coticule, but made me reach that sticky feeling on my Coticule very soon.

It's not super sticky as other users have experienced where you can't drag the razor over the stone anymore, but a slight drag that you can clearly notice.
I'm using a vintage Coticule à la La Grise / Nouvelle veine. I do need to get that exact feeling / feedback from my stone / razor, but it's a guarantee for me for a good edge nowadays.


PS a quarter hollow vintage Henckels has blown me out of the water with its' buttery smooth edge, easiest shave I've ever had
An old Bartmann Manganese steel I inherited that gave me some trouble in the past honed up really sweet this way too.

Full hollows are nice, near wedges too, but I really love that quarter hollow feel
I have a couple of quarter hollow Grelots that need some love, I bet they'll hone up really well too.

I dont have any luck with a coti and only know what i read but, it seems that going from 12k to Coti might be calming the edge a bit. Lessening the keenness. But still, a little less than 12k is not a bad thing. Thanks for sharing. I might give it a try.

Tristan, I have a newly mined La Grise (4 years is newly...). It has a 'woody' feedback on water to match the stone's color. Not icy like my La Dressant, and nothing like my Cretan or Vermio (almost none). Does yours have any feedback? I'm not disappointed with the edge it gives, but since I've only honed with these two coticules, I thought I could/should ask if mine is much different from a vintage version. Thanks.

I also have a La Grise from a few years ago, the feedback is different though, it's definitely not the same mine / layer.

My vintage Coticule is more like honing on glass, zero feel and very very smooth and is smoother than my La Grise which has a little more 'feedback' although not much; both have a grainy looking Coticule surface

I'll soon re-finish one of the razors on my La Grise under running water and make a comparison

Out of all my modernly mined Coticules my La Grise is the smoothest of them all; but it's not as smooth as my vintage one.

Although many of my other vintage ones are not as smooth as my La Grise.

Given that my vintage one has been heavily used by myself, it is "glazed", that might help giving that tad bit of fineness, works like a charm though.

The Coticule from my great-grandfather that I inherited was glazed as well and SUPER smooth (I think it was also used with oil though), foolishly I lapped it and is a bit less smooth now
Not sure if that affects the results much, but it feels a but nicer for me to hone on a glass like surface


My La Grise has a Yellow Coticule layer - an orange layer - a BBW / blue / purple layer.

My vintage one has a yellow coticule layer with dark lines in it on the sides - and a regular blue / purple woodsy layer

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Originally Posted by Gasman

I dont have any luck with a coti and only know what i read but, it seems that going from 12k to Coti might be calming the edge a bit. Lessening the keenness. But still, a little less than 12k is not a bad thing. Thanks for sharing. I might give it a try.

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I first tried shaving off of the 12k, while a perfectly mighty fine edge, I knew I could improve on it as per personal preference by going to a Coticule.

I didn't loose any keenness though, I can't even tell that I'm shaving whiskers off my face with the Coticule edge. But it's smoother and more forgiving. I can do stupid things while shaving and get away with it coming off the Coticule.

While the synthetics give me little cuts on small imperfections on the skin, I don't get them with a Coticule.

I used to have a love / hate relationship with the Coticules, but synthetics -> Coti has been very good for me and foolproof so far

I often hone up to the 8 k naniwas shave if the 8 k for a while then add 30 to 100 strokes on my coticules with water only and it really does the trick I have done the same after 10 k naniwas I think if your edge is set the coticule takes the bite out of the edge and as you say no way of getting the odd blood spot

After finishing the same razor on a modern La Grise, I can't tell much difference.

The La Grise on plain water feels a bit different, I get more feedback from it, but still feels very smooth. My La Grise also feels a bit "rougher" / more texturized when rubbing over it with your fingertips compared to my vintage Coti.

It's much harder to get to the sticky feeling part and I only get a faint sensation of it on the La Grise.

But it leaves a fantastic shaving edge that is very capable whilst being very smooth and skin-friendly. It took a whole lot longer to finish on the La Grise.

I'd be extremely hard pressed to choose one over the other, but I might give a modernly mined La Grise the sliiight edge. Fantastics finishing stones.

The la grise can be very slow with water that’s what I have found .

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

the coticule takes the bite out of the edge and as you say no way of getting the odd blood spot

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It's a great stone, it's odd how well a Coticule edge done right works, it's the most skin friendly edge I have tried.
I really have come to like it more and more over the years.



I inherited my great-grandfather's Coticule, (along with his and HIS father's razor + strop, lucky me, I treasure them) and it seemed to have been heavily used with oil.
The texture of he Coticule was glazed over with oil, it was super smooth and amazingly fine, water would just bead off the stone.
The stone was also very dark and had been used heavily. I bet the Oil + steel particles made it a very fine hone.

The idiot I was, I lapped it, which looking back I wish I hadn't. As other things I wish I hadn't done with heirloom pieces, but live and learn, at least I lived.


Anyhow, next up I'm gonna try finishing the same razor on heavy oil.

I have tried Ballistol in the past, but it washes off too easily when compared to the state of my GGF's Coticule and seemed too thin in comparison, so I'm looking at using a heavier oil.

I've read about neatsfoot oils being used in the "olden days", so that's probably gonna be my choice of oil. It's thick enough, but also very slick.

I have some "rougher" Coticules that I'm gonna put a layer of neatsfoot oil on the surface and let that soak in for a bit as well, but that's another experiment.

My modern La Grise is smooth to the touch, even fingernail, but has some 'tooth' when honing. I get a similar scratch pattern with both of my coticules. And a nice friendly edge, provided the edge is set properly. When I choose to kill an edge and restart, the dilucot is hit or miss for me. I'm too stubborn to use synthetics and not yet ready to splurge on an Escher; an unfortunate Limbo to be in...

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Originally Posted by cau

My modern La Grise is smooth to the touch, even fingernail, but has some 'tooth' when honing. I get a similar scratch pattern with both of my coticules. And a nice friendly edge, provided the edge is set properly. When I choose to kill an edge and restart, the dilucot is hit or miss for me. I'm too stubborn to use synthetics and not yet ready to splurge on an Escher; an unfortunate Limbo to be in...

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I don't find my Thuringer hones to be better than my Coticule tbh; though they are consistent

I was also stubborn and didn't feel like using synthetics, but I'm glad that I did. Taking out of the equation the entire slurry thing and unicots and dilucots made my life endlessly easier.
It was always a hit or a miss, ergo I wanted consistency and went to synthetics, and only use my Coticules for pure finishing nowadays, muuuuch easier.

I also severely doubt that my inherited Coticule was ever used with slurry, I don't think it has been, and was purely used as a finishing stone.

Even-though they're capable of everything from bevel setting to finishing, it's too much hassle and too inconsistent in my hands.
Although my best ever shaving edge came from a Dilucot on a BBW (La Nouvelle Veine) Go figure. Although very hard to replicate the results.

Next shave is gonna bea Coticule edge done on oil and a BBW edge done on oil

I have a La Grise from the same period and my only gripe is that it tends to flake from time to time & it also tends to auto slurry. Really left me at a loss for a decent edge. The way the OP is using it is probably the best most will get from this stone. They do tend to have this cool holographic look to them and I suspect it’s the way the thin layers are stacked on each other that does this. I suspect that this also why some of these may have a tendency to flake.

I don't have experienced flaking with my modernly mined La Grise, yet.

However my vintage one does have it!


I can't tell a difference between oil vs running water on the Coticule, it's about the same result

Also the BBW's edge was a little rougher

Mimics all my previous attempts, a Coticule under running water purely as a finisher is for me the best method to get my preferred edge

I have honed for years just using dilucot with consistent edges with a thew coticule s. Lovely edges but I did find in tough spots I was lacking a little something. Having used Naniwa up to 20 k G with outstanding performance and results the only thing I noticed, I was left with a little burning hot sensation post shave this only lasted 10 minutes or so. I do have thick
Stubble but sensitive skin. Since I have stopped at the 8 k then coticule water and my face prefers it. I also do the same method except I miss the 8 k out and go 3 k straight to 10 k 100 strokes on the coticule and the results are really nice . I tried the same thing with 12 k / coticule no probs what so ever smooth keen and skin freindly. I have at least ten resent mined coticule s that I need to test there all la grise apart from some la grosse Jaune .

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

I have honed for years just using dilucot with consistent edges with a thew coticule s. Lovely edges but I did find in tough spots I was lacking a little something. Having used Naniwa up to 20 k G with outstanding performance and results the only thing I noticed, I was left with a little burning hot sensation post shave this only lasted 10 minutes or so. I do have thick
Stubble but sensitive skin. Since I have stopped at the 8 k then coticule water and my face prefers it. I also do the same method except I miss the 8 k out and go 3 k straight to 10 k 100 strokes on the coticule and the results are really nice . I tried the same thing with 12 k / coticule no probs what so ever smooth keen and skin freindly. I have at least ten resent mined coticule s that I need to test there all la grise apart from some la grosse Jaune .

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Nice, I completely follow you in your methods.

10 more to test La Grise AND La Grosse Jaune? Damn, you're in for some sweet shaves!

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

I have honed for years just using dilucot with consistent edges with a thew coticule s. Lovely edges but I did find in tough spots I was lacking a little something. Having used Naniwa up to 20 k G with outstanding performance and results the only thing I noticed, I was left with a little burning hot sensation post shave this only lasted 10 minutes or so. I do have thick
Stubble but sensitive skin. Since I have stopped at the 8 k then coticule water and my face prefers it. I also do the same method except I miss the 8 k out and go 3 k straight to 10 k 100 strokes on the coticule and the results are really nice . I tried the same thing with 12 k / coticule no probs what so ever smooth keen and skin freindly. I have at least ten resent mined coticule s that I need to test there all la grise apart from some la grosse Jaune .

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Gary, have you found multiple light slurry sessions (diluted down to water) helpful after doing an initial dulicot starting with medium slurry? I tried this yesterday evening and got much better results than I thought possible. I think when people read about or attempt dulicot there’s an assumption that a single session is all that’s needed. But when I follow this with a couple of light slurry dulicot attempts followed by finishing under a dripping faucet the desired end result is actually there for me at least.

I tried every trick in the book with Coticules . There is no doubt a good used flax linen really aids a coticule edge . Coticule is trial and error what works one day may not another day . When I hit the sweet spot the results are amazingly different to any stone out there wheather it be natural or synthetic whetstone. I just got to a point now where I just leave slurry out all together. I have 9 top notch razors 5 of them are finished with coticule and 4 finished 20 kG this gives me best of both

I find going back and forth between the strop and the coticule at the finishing stage helps me get to that sweet spot.

I am still on the fence with respect to the utility of slurrying, especially after setting a bevel on the chosera 1k. The slurry tends to be more dulling than anything and I prefer to use more strokes and pressure on the coticule after bevel setting instead.

I had to reset the bevel on a 4/8 Wade & Butcher (it is 4/8 now, but was probably not born that way). Decided to use my combo coticule since I was watching the US election results and didn’t feel in a hurry.

Started with rolling X-strokes on the BBW side with slurry, gradually diluting to just water. Stopped when the TPT felt good. Cut arm hair off the skin.

Then went to the coticule side with no slurry, just water with a little bit of dish soap in it. Kept refreshing the water until the edge really popped arm hairs. The last 10 or so passes were weight of the blade only.

Finished on a Vermio weight of the blade only.

Shaved with the blade this morning and found it needed some strokes on my CrOx coated balsa strop. Pretty good 2-pass shave with minimal irritation.

I've been using slurry for the past 10 years ad nauseam, while some can work magic with it, I can't get consistent results, at least not for finishing a razor.

A BBW with slurry has superb sharpening properties and leaves very sharp well cutting edges, albeit not as smooth as the Coticule side can ime. I also love fast Cotis with slurry to set bevels.
Works like charm. But it takes some time to work the magic.

I like the simplicity, efficiency, ease of use and speed of the Naniwa stones.

Although the 12k leaves only a tiny bit to be desired for me, enter a Coticule with water, my exclusive finisher nowadays.


Pastes is something I never really considered until recently.

I ordered a duo pack of Herold - Dovo Red and Black paste that should arrive in the next few days, I'll try the black paste first on a fine shaving Coticule edge and see if improvements occur.


I remember I was once in a local store that sells SR goodies and the owner raved about the red paste.
I'm not knowledgeable enough about CrOx; I also read people raving about the Puma green paste.

Onto trying new things!

I think the Pums green is CrOx as is the TI green. Wouldn’t surprise me if they all came from the same source.

Red paste followed by black paste gave a great pleasant and easy shave, but it felt different than a Coticule edge. Very sharp and quite smooth as well, I didn't get any small nicks, and I see it as a sure improvement coming off a Synthetic edge, as in taming it a bit.

All things considered, I'm more of a Coticule followed by clean linen kinda man.

The paste's edge seemed a bit crisp, but by all means was it smooth


I've also used the pastes on my EDC knife and it has worked really really well, great smooth and sharp edge, color me impressed by them, easy to use and fast, thumbs up!

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Originally Posted by cau

When I choose to kill an edge and restart, the dilucot is hit or miss for me. I'm too stubborn to use synthetics and not yet ready to splurge on an Escher; an unfortunate Limbo to be in...

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I tired of the hit and mostly miss of the dilucot, so I bought these. Lapped them today, will put a blade to them another...

Attachment 299104

I know what you're saying

that's also why I got the synthetics, took the guessing out of the game

I mix it up, sometimes I hone only on naturals, bevel to finish

Other-times I go all synthetic


All I got from it all is more experience and a better feeling for what an edge feels like in every stage


I still prefer my naturals for their charm and they work really well

a synthetic is just a no BS approach, which I can always appreciate


BUT with all the trouble naturals give an unexperienced user, I'm very glad I got a synthetic line-up, made my life easier!

Often take a blade to highest synthetic, SG20 then finish on a natural.

The synthetic progression gets the bevels flat and near stria free, then joint/kill the edge and reset a the natural, for me Ark or Jnat.

I have even stropped a 20k edge, on metal polish (on cardboard, inside of cereal box) to remove all stria on the bevels, then joint and use a natural finisher. 50 laps on metal polish is all you need, but will heave a harsh edge, most metal polish is probably Aluminum Oxide and other grit, can’t shave off it.

The new edge is pure natural finisher.

That's a good idea, similar to the secondary bevel idea for finishing.


Today I tried out my new Mühle silvertip fibre brush, fantastic brush btw, and shaved with two razors I refreshed on the Naniwa 8k and 12k, both under running water.
That had been a while and boy, those razors shaved like a dream. Effortless and very smooth, I don't think there are more efficient stones in my arsenal.

For very good reason the Naniwas get recommended a lot to anyone new to honing.

I think I'll keep shaving off these Naniwa 12k edges for a while before I finish them on an Escher or Coticule.

It's always when I'm shaving with a 12k edge that I wonder how good the Suehiro 20k is. Although I feel there's not much that can be improved upon whilst shaving off the Naniwa 12k.

I decided to do a final experiment and honed 3 different vintage Henckels razors, put them through a Naniwa progression 5k -> 8K -> 12K.

One razor I kept the finish on set by the Naniwa 12k under running water
the second I took from the 12k to a boxed Thüringer stone finished under running water
the third razor went from the 12k to a La Grise Coticule also finished under running water

They were all rigorously stropped on both linen and a horsehide strop by Scrupleworks.

I used my new Mühle STF synthetic for the second time, what a fine shaving brush, and paired it with the Baume be cream.

I don't do pre-shave things, I face lather and shave.

In random order let's label the razors A, B & C.

I had a VERY hard time discerning the three different edges, they all shaved somewhat alike, which tends me to agree when I read people mention that a good stropping evens things out.

A & B shaved almost identical, very sharp and very smooth, B might've been a TAD smoother/easier on the skin, but not by much. Razor C did stand out above the other two, it was keener and shaved easier and better than the others whilst also being smoother. (The difference wasn't that big, but I did notice this quite well probably because I've been shaving over a decade with SRs, it's the little things)

Again, the difference wasn't much, but C was unquestionably my favorite shaver.

To my very own surprise C was the Naniwa 12K edge, B was the Coticule and C the Thüringer.

I'm contradicting my original post, but I don't think I've had ever experienced a maxed out Naniwa 12K edge, because it's simply sublime and an outstanding shaving edge that leaves nothing to be desired.

Never thought I' say this, but I atm prefer a synthetic stone and synthetic brush over the natural variants, heh.

All three edges can be improved, though admittedly slightly and maybe more so depending on your technique, by fresh lapping the stone face and using 3-4 drops of Smith’s Honing oil or Ballistol on a wet stone, for the final finish laps, if you really want to max out the stones. Especially the 12k as they have a tendency to load up.

Both Smiths and Ballistol wash off easily and fully with water and drop of dish soap, make sure to rinse the 12k thoroughly to remove all the soap.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

All three edges can be improved, though admittedly slightly and maybe more so depending on your technique, by fresh lapping the stone face and using 3-4 drops of Smith’s Honing oil or Ballistol on a wet stone, for the final finish laps, if you really want to max out the stones. Especially the 12k as they have a tendency to load up.

Both Smiths and Ballistol wash off easily and fully with water and drop of dish soap, make sure to rinse the 12k thoroughly to remove all the soap.

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Ive only used Smiths honing solution om a Welsh slate but with great success.

I do notice and you can clearly feel when the swarf builds up, that's one downside, but seeing how little of the 12K is actually removed when lapping it, I do feel it'll still last a long time.
They feel very nice freshly lapped. Great stones, haven't tried oil on them, I have a big can of Ballistol so will give it a try.

Does anyone know what exactly happens when the Naniwas load up? Do they become inefficient and very slow or ... ?
I think I wanna do a comparison of a freshly lapped vs a fully loaded 12K

I honed my 6/8 Sheffield steel full Hollow today. Set the edge on the 3 k chosera . Used the 5 k and finished with literally 35 strokes on the 8k Naniwa. The amount of strokes on the 8 k can vary but that’s what I start out with.

Showerd lathered up as usual with tabac soap . Stropped 8k edge and shaved left cheek the 8k edge shaved we’ll enough for me.

I quickly gave the razor 12 strokes on the 12 k.

Stropped again and continued to shave and there was an improvement.

I then added just 8 more strokes on the 12 k Naniwa finished the shave .

There is no doubt it was as smooth as I like and a very impressive shave.

I have the 20 kG and could do five to ten strokes but I really don’t feel the need to as I am happy at the 12 k

I think the trick is not to over do it and make sure the 8 k level is cutting the stubble nicely and then add the 12 k

In reply to post #30.
For me they definitely slow down in they’re cutting aggressiveness, but they don’t stop cutting assuming you’re using a lubricant of some sort. I actually like them loading up a bit as I get to the end of my honing. For me I hone to the 12k and then just dip the stone and then wipe off the swarf and any slurry by rubbing my palm on the surface and without refreshing, do Glens finger squeegee technique replace the tape on the spine and do anywhere from 10-20 laps until it feels right and the hone is almost free of standing water.. I feel the edge is just a touch less sharp then off a freshly lapped hone but boy is it smooth.

Thanks for your “blind” review of your finishers, HAD has been trying to sink it’s hooks in me, hearing reviews like that makes it a little easier to resist.

What I experienced with a load 12k is random scratching on the bevel and some micro chipping.

I set the bevel on a 12k then joint the edge to remove the edge and any Microchipping, lap the stone and re-set the bevel 20 or so laps.

You can test this for yourself if you have a SG20, that will remove most of the stria or from a good 8k bevel, do about 100 laps on Chrome Oxide and remove most stria, then do some finish laps on a loaded up 12k.

A scotch brite will remove swarf but the face is not as aggressive as a freshly lapped face, I use a 600 diamond plat to re-lap a stone face.

I had the same problem with the 12k and swarf. If you palm scrub the face of the hone or use you me fingers under running water or underwater it alleviates the random scratches without having to refresh the surface.

I realize now I wasn’t clear about that in my other post. I’ll edit it to reflect that.

Tristan-You've got me wanting to just go back and max out my Nani 12k on my next edge refresh; I've got 4 in the honing que that need some work and a snow day off work tomorrow-I might have to give the Nani a go under running water, as I've enjoyed the results from some other stones after honing under a trickle (plus, you don't have to "stop and squirt" from the water bottle either lol!).

On the other hand, I just test-shaved a couple of Wostenholms that I had maxed out on my SB Arkie using the "thin to thick" regimen some of us are fooling around with (followed by my usual epic stropping sessions, of course). Both were so smooth they didn't even feel like they were doing anything on the skin (which always tells me when I've truly nailed an edge), but gave an effortless smooth shave-love those Arkie edges!

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Originally Posted by gary haywood

I think the trick is not to over do it and make sure the 8 k level is cutting the stubble nicely and then add the 12 k

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I don't really know how many laps I did, I go by feel and how the edge looks in the light through my loupe,
I did however spent quite the time on the 8K for optimal polishing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScoutHikerDad

Tristan-You've got me wanting to just go back and max out my Nani 12k on my next edge refresh; I've got 4 in the honing que that need some work and a snow day off work tomorrow-I might have to give the Nani a go under running water, as I've enjoyed the results from some other stones after honing under a trickle (plus, you don't have to "stop and squirt" from the water bottle either lol!).

On the other hand, I just test-shaved a couple of Wostenholms that I had maxed out on my SB Arkie using the "thin to thick" regimen some of us are fooling around with (followed by my usual epic stropping sessions, of course). Both were so smooth they didn't even feel like they were doing anything on the skin (which always tells me when I've truly nailed an edge), but gave an effortless smooth shave-love those Arkie edges!

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Aha! Variety is the spice of life.
I like to hone a couple of razors at once and finish differently to see which I like better
I should get my hands on an Arkie someday, because those edges sound good!