This sucks...

Last night I dragged my wife and 3 month old daughter on a 2hr round trip car ride just so I could purchase my Norton 4k/8k and flattening stone. (My wife thought I was nuts...) Anyway, I got these bad boys home, drew my grid on both sides of the hone and proceeded to lap each side until flat.

I then took one of my new Wapienicas and tried my hand at honing (first time ever)... what I discovered is that I truely suck at it. :cen As I honed the razor, I noticed that I was getting an uneven bevel on one side, and absolutely NO bevel on the other. WTF... to make matters worse, after each pass on the hone, I was able to clearly feel a wire edge with my fingernail. <sigh...> At this point I was beginning to get a little frustrated so I grabbed one of my other Wapi's and gave it a go.

Better... I was able to produce an uneven bevel on both sides. I relapped my hone and tried again... a bit better,... bevel was more even, but nothing great. Only the point and heel were able to cut any hair at all. So I applied more pressure to the blade to try to set the bevel better, which I managed to do, but I also wore the spine on the razor a bit. :cen The razor will not pass a HHT, but I was able to shave a patch of hair on my leg with ease.

So... after approx. 3hrs of dorking around with my razors, I finally went to bed... ... very, very unhappily. I'm really starting to feel like I'm in over my head with honing, but feel like I need to stick with it, as I want to learn -- plus I can't possibly justify this expense to my wife otherwise.

I have accepted heavydutysg135's offer to hone my razors, but I feel like I should keep practicing on one to learn this skill for myself. I plan on doing a pyramid on the second razor tonight to see what happens.

My overall feeling right now is still ... ... this sucks!

- Ken -

This is what you call the learning curve. Everyone goes through this phase and it indeed does suck. Like with any other skill, the only way to get past this sucky phase is to keep practicing. If you are getting an uneven bevel then this means that you are using uneven pressure (too much in some areas). One of the most important aspects of honing (along with being able to assess relative blade sharpness) is developing a perfect stroke with light even pressure along the entire blade. You must be able to consistently perform a perfect stroke going both directions before you start to get the results that you want. If you have not already done so, check out the honing section on Lynn's DVD. If you don't already have it then I will let you borrow mine. This will at least show you what a good stroke looks like. It will just take time to develop the feel for yourself. FWIW I have never heard of anyone that was able to put a great edge on a razor the first time they used a Norton; and the difficulties that you have to overcome now will make that first great shave from a razor that you honed yourself even more sweet. If you get frusterated then it is time to take a break. Have fun.

I agree with Heavyduty, but you might also want to check and see if the flattening stone is perfectly flat, if not you can use low git sandpaper to flatten it as well.

I really don't think that the flattening stone is the issue. It is the honing stroke that must be developed.

After 2 rounds of lapping, I'm hoping the hone has been properly flattened. I think the issue lays more with my inability to hone properly... yet! (But, I shall persevere...)

- Ken -

You might also have a slightly warped blade!

Hey Ken,

Happy to hear that you got your 4k/8k, I think mine's still en route from Florida or probably smashed to pieces in some customs office in an 'accident' in Winnipeg or something... bastards... oops getting off topic.

I'm not sure what Lynn has on his super-famous dvd, but I know that ToxiK has done some videos of himself honing, and on a norton, so I'll post the link below. He's very very informative, gives lots of tips, and all you can see is him honing an eBay special straight from a 1k to paste strop and passing HHT with ease, even got his patented 'Smells Sharp' adage attached to it.

I've watch them all about 5 times (also great for going to sleep if you've got insomnia haha as very very simple, dry, and rhythmic), and at least feel like I'll watch them another few times after I get my norton just to make sure.

He had posted one video at youtube, but the rest are at Daily Motion
Hope this helps a bit, and good luck man!

I'm in a similar situation - I just got my first hone, a Norton 4k/8k, and a couple of Wapis to learn on. On a side note, I got both a 5/8 and a 4/8 Wapi, but I thought they'd both be 5/8. Not really a big deal, the 4/8 may become my detailing razor, I just thought it was strange....

Back to the issue, what flattening stone did you get? I know that from time to time, the Norton flattening stone also needs to be flattened, but is it possible that it might need it straight from the box? That is, if that's the stone you got for flattening! The whole "flattening the flattening stone" issue is why I just got a DMT to begin with - it never needs flattening, and you'd use that to flatten a flattening stone anyway! Plus, I found a really good price on them!

All this said, I still haven't honed. I'm trying to find a good container to soak the Norton in, and possibly store it in the water. I don't know if that's a good idea, but according to Norton, they can be submerged long-term without problems. I know Lynn said he just leaves his in the water constantly, but like he also said on his DVD, he uses them every day!

A question I haven't really seen addressed before - does the water quality have an effect on the stone? The water around here sucks. Lather of any kind isn't easy to come by, be it shaving or washing lather. I find I have to use more of the soap/cream to generate any usable lather at all, and it dries up fast, even when I use a lot of water! I use one of Oskar's scuttles though, so maybe I'm using too hot of water in the reservoir? I plan to soak/store the stone in distilled water. With all the minerals in the water here, I could just see it. I'm lapping the Norton, and when I lift it from the DMT - wow! Calcium! Efflorescence for the masses!

Just curious....

Sorry about the hijack! :HJ

Joe

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mojo

A question I haven't really seen addressed before - does the water quality have an effect on the stone? The water around here sucks. Lather of any kind isn't easy to come by, be it shaving or washing lather. I find I have to use more of the soap/cream to generate any usable lather at all, and it dries up fast, even when I use a lot of water! I use one of Oskar's scuttles though, so maybe I'm using too hot of water in the reservoir? I plan to soak/store the stone in distilled water. With all the minerals in the water here, I could just see it. I'm lapping the Norton, and when I lift it from the DMT - wow! Calcium! Efflorescence for the masses!

Just curious....

Sorry about the hijack! :HJ
Joe

---

I really think that the type of water should have absolutely no affect on the honing. Hard water has particles that are dissolved, they are not floating around. If anything the metal swarf that is quickly created from honing would have more effect, but even this has never been an issue for me. If you want to make sure, buy a bottle of distilled water; however, I really don't think that it will make any difference.

I used distilled water as we are on a well and I get much better results with the bottled stuff. It's about $.50 per gallon at all the grocery stores.

Lynn

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by adjustme69

I used distilled water as we are on a well and I get much better results with the bottled stuff. It's about $.50 per gallon at all the grocery stores.

Lynn

---

I stand corrected. Looks like it would be worth a shot then.

Honing really is harder than it looks, but not too hard for you to learn, just be patient. Take your time and don't get flustered. I've very suspicious of such a bad bevel coming right out of the chute. There could be something funny with these razors.

For now focus on being more specific about what your doing when you send us a post. For example, you'll note its actually impossible to apply a razor to a Norton 4/8K. You gotta choose one side or the other. :)

It sounds to me, based on very little available data, that you honed on the 4K side using pressure and were not able to replicate the same pressure on each side. Remember that the stone must be oriented to ensure your hand will apply equal pressure throughout the entire stroke, in each direction.

These razors need to be sent out for evaluation and to be looked at.

Start fresh with a new razor, lapped Norton, and only work on the 8K side for a bit. Use the slow properties to learn a good, even stroke and see if you can make a new razor shave ready with only the 8K side (or close).

Remember to use equal pressure, a light touch, the razor flat on the stone, and that each stroke must be equal length and angle on each opposing side. The strokes must be equal against the opposing side or your not creating a fin/sharp edge, your honing the edge and pushing the fin from one side to the other unequally, never achieving a razors edge.

If you get the feel of applying equal pressure and turning the blade over and the 8k alone fails to improve, add a stroke or 2 of 4K for good measure and start over again.

Move to learning how to use a light touch to accomplish the stroke.

Think of the 4K as a very good cutter and the 8k as a very good polisher. As much as you may want to use the 4k and start cutting away at the bevel you'll probably do more harm than good. Be judicious with the 4K for now.

Keep in mind the reason so many people use "only the weight of the blade" is because its so brainless to create equality of pressure if the pressure is a set amount that you do not add. You eliminate human error. Or most of it anyway.

I still have a hard time with Nortons, too wide for me for now.
For faster cutting I got a japanese water hone.
I may drop it and come out with a few mininortons. :)
I thought I had nailed it, and for a couple blades I do fine, but there's still a few razors I just know I'm not progressing with due to really sucking.

The best was a shave-ready razor I used to see what "sharp" feels like on my norton 8k side. It was shave ready for about 2 laps. :)
I'm ok with a plain blade and a barber hone.

The way I look at it, I got this stuff for life.
Why metal and rocks is so fun, I don't know, but it is. So I don't stay too disheartened when a razor whips me.

I'm always adding this, I know, I know....:gth

But I found putting some magic marker on each side of the edge an enormous visual aid when I first started honing - it let me see, after just one stroke on each side, what was happening when I did certain things.

Just a thought.

James.

Don't feel bad, Ken. You've made noticeable progress in just three hours. That's a good thing. I think the water's primary job is to create surface tension to help the blade along the hone smoothly. Some water may be better than others for this, but I can't really say. our water is pretty soft.

This is your opportunity to go slow and really feel what is happening with the blade at all points along the hone. I hon left to right and back again and consider it very important to keep my forefinger on the underside spine side of the blade and my thumb on the top edge side of the shank. this produces a gently torque to keep the edge gently pressed to the hone. Next is to either use the X motion or Rolling Hone method to gradually and evenly transfer the main point of contact or pressure of the blade on the stone up the edge from heel to tip. Try to keep it even all long.

First things first though. Fix that bevel with about twenty circles on either side of the blade and roll that pressure up and down the edge to get it all even.

X

Thank-you for all your words of encouragement! After reading through a few threads, I was ready to take another kick at the can. So when I got home from work, I started on honing up razor #2 from last night.

1. Completed a full pyramid, using very light pressure (checking the blade periodically)... failed the HHT.

2. Repeated the full pyramid... failed the HHT. I then tested the blade on my arm and was pleased to see the hairs getting cut down.

3. Completed a short pyramid... failed the HHT. (WTF... am I never going to pass this test???)

At this point, I'd had enough honing for one night, but thought I'd do a brief shave test on one side of my face to see/feel what kind of progress I had made. As I have no strop yet... I simply stropped the razor on a piece of paper on a flat piece of glass. (Not the greatest, but I figured it'd work in a pinch.) Did my usual prep, lathered up with some Proraso, and was surprised to discover that the razor was indeed shaving the hair from my face (with some very slight tugging). Completed 2 passes... WTG and XTG. No nicks, cuts, or scrapes.

I may not be there yet... but this little bit of success certainly helps reinforce my desire to use str8's. :y

Sooooo... ...what's my next step? Should I simply continue doing pyramids until I can pass the HHT?

- Ken -

Ken,

At this point, a full pyramid will set you back a bit. You might try doing just the tip of the pyramid--a couple of 1/3s, then test shave. Try that a couple of times, and if it doesn't work you might need a full pyramid.

It sounds like you're close. A little more practice and you'll be shavin'! :)

BTW, the HHT doesn't work for everyone. Even if your hair is perfect for it, it'll take some practice to get there. I have nice, thick hair that works great for the test, but it took me two months to get a razor to pass the test.

It's a good indicator of your progress, but it's not a fail-safe test. :)

Keep at it,
Josh

"X" Pattern. That's it. Wapi's love it.

Yeah, 3 x 1/3 and see how it goes with the HHT and arm hair. Strop and test again. sounds like you're getting close.

X

I been at it on and off for a few months and I just got a blade sharper than thought possible tonight. Patience. If I can do it anyone can, I have terrible manual dexterity.
I couldn't just follow a process and get very far. Reading posts from the likes of AFDavis and LX convinced me to think a bit outside any one set of directions and apply some practical common sense. I'd love to find success with the 4k/8k pyramids route, but I just can't seem to keep a steady hand on that norton.

I'll agree, for the sake of consistency, :) , to go with a few 1/3. Consider that one reason people have trouble succeeding is that they go too far or they go too short on honing.

What they fail to anticipate is the finishing of the edge (which includes more honing) and the need to strop (which creates greater smoothness).

In order to create a perfected edge, it must be finished. So we have 3 very broad areas of honing.

1. Removing imperfections/Bevel setting: (usually done with circular honing and a little pressure, straight down a wide hone, or with a x pattern)

2. Basic sharpening: (usually done with a pyramid method, straight or x pattern)

3. Finishing: (usually done with a high grit hone, 8k or higher, an ultra light touch, a repetitive perfect stroke, and an x pattern (only)).

And ofcourse, test shave often. Its more important to get a good sharp smooth perfected edge that shaves well, and then do some tests with it, so you know how the tests should feel with a truely well honed blade for proper comparison.

BTW . . . it took me about 4 years to learn how to hone, so you won't get much empathy from me for atleast another year. :) If I could have achieved a decent shave by stropping on paper as new to honing as you are I would have been marching around my house yelling "Who's the man!?", "Oh Yea, I'm the man!" ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

If I could have achieved a decent shave by stropping on paper as new to honing as you are I would have been marching around my house yelling "Who's the man!?", "Oh Yea, I'm the man!" ;)

---

Now that you mention it... :w I do recall professing my manliness to my wife, but she just went back to sleep!!! :roflmao

I'll let you know now that standing on the bed and proclaiming "THE HONEMIESTER DEMANDS TO BE SERVICED!" ain't such a good idea either. :w

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I'll let you know now that standing on the bed and proclaiming "THE HONEMIESTER DEMANDS TO BE SERVICED!" ain't such a good idea either. :w

---

Unless the honemeister wants to sleep on the couch. :roflmao

Alan,

This is a great post. Thinking of honing as a three-tiered process has been very useful for me.

It's also helpful to remember that the tests fit nicely within the framework you layed out.

Bevel creation:
Marker test (Is the blade warped? Is the bevel developing evenly? Does it go all the way to the edge?)
Thumbnail test (Is the edge even all along its length? Are there any chips?)

Basic sharpening:
Microscope (Are there any microscopic chips?)
Hanging hair test (Is the edge sharp?)

Finishing:
Thumb pad test (Is the blade keen?)
Shave test (Is the edge smooth?)

Don't get overwhelmed by all these tests. You don't have to use all of them or any of them--although I imagine we all use the shave test now and then.

But if you feel like you're getting stuck at any point, these tests can help you figure out what might be going wrong.

I do think the HHT is often misunderstood. It's a good test for basic sharpness, not necessarily shave-readiness. Once you get the hang of things, you'll probably find that you're able to pass the HHT off the 4K side of the Norton. But you wouldn't want to shave with that edge, because it's not smooth enough. It needs finishing.

Keep at it,
Josh

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I'll agree, for the sake of consistency, :) , to go with a few 1/3. Consider that one reason people have trouble succeeding is that they go too far or they go too short on honing.

What they fail to anticipate is the finishing of the edge (which includes more honing) and the need to strop (which creates greater smoothness).

In order to create a perfected edge, it must be finished. So we have 3 very broad areas of honing.

1. Removing imperfections/Bevel setting: (usually done with circular honing and a little pressure, straight down a wide hone, or with a x pattern)

2. Basic sharpening: (usually done with a pyramid method, straight or x pattern)

3. Finishing: (usually done with a high grit hone, 8k or higher, an ultra light touch, a repetitive perfect stroke, and an x pattern (only)).

And ofcourse, test shave often. Its more important to get a good sharp smooth perfected edge that shaves well, and then do some tests with it, so you know how the tests should feel with a truely well honed blade for proper comparison.

BTW . . . it took me about 4 years to learn how to hone, so you won't get much empathy from me for atleast another year. :) If I could have achieved a decent shave by stropping on paper as new to honing as you are I would have been marching around my house yelling "Who's the man!?", "Oh Yea, I'm the man!" ;)

---

I can't believe that you are stropping on paper. You NEED a leather strop to get a decent shave.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Friggin Joe

I been at it on and off for a few months and I just got a blade sharper than thought possible tonight. Patience. If I can do it anyone can, I have terrible manual dexterity.
I couldn't just follow a process and get very far. Reading posts from the likes of AFDavis and LX convinced me to think a bit outside any one set of directions and apply some practical common sense. I'd love to find success with the 4k/8k pyramids route, but I just can't seem to keep a steady hand on that norton.

---

This is why I have always been an advocate for the thumb nail test as taught in the old barber manuals.

Regardless of what honing method you employ, if your edge passes the "test" it's done, period.


Scott