tried out a new dan's combination soft/black ark :}

when a friend of mine asked me why I used crox, I was sorta confused. I thought that was what you were supposed to do. so seeing as how he was trying out one way I like to hone a razor, I figured id better try out this whole no crox thing.

yesterday I took one of my favorite razors in 1095 and cocobolo, and took it to a brand new Dan's combination soft/black from amazon at about $78 shipped, its a 8x2x1" I checked it for flat on a granite plate, but didn't do anyting else to it. the razor had had one of my normal edges off the naniwa 12k. so I didn't use the soft side, and went straight to the black. to start with, I used some mineral oil, and then cut it on the stone with some mineral spirits to lighten it up and get the edge closer to the stone. did half laps on one side of the blade until I could see the scratch pattern go to the edge, flipped, did the same on the other side. then lightened up the pressure, and did alternating edge leading strokes to even things out. cleaned the stone, and went with straight mineral oil for a good cushion, and then alternating edge leading strokes for maybe another dozen strokes. replaced the oil, then switched to alternating edge trailing strokes for a dozen laps or so with a very light touch and plenty of oil to float the edge.

then instead of crox, linen and leather, I just palm stropped it maybe 20 times, I did have some of the mineral oil on my hand, and used the rest to oil the scales and pivot while I was there.

this morning, I lathered up with some mama bears vanilla and sandalwood {my wifes favorite}, gave it another 20 palm strops and shaved. it was a nice shave. close, comfy, just a hit of aggressiveness, got the nice sticking feeling when the razor wants to cling to my skin on the atg pass under my neck. I don't use any sort of aftershave, but no stinging or discomfort afterwards.

I then gave it my standard 10 laps on linen to dry the edge out, and will have fun seeing how it goes on just linen and leather for awhile :}

I do not typically use any pasted strop after I hone. If my edge is there, it should not need any. We all have our routines and it is good to switch it up every now after then.

Joe
Typically an Arkansas Translucent or Black are burnished after lapping. Mine have been burnished with SIC up to 2000 then I used 5k wet dry sandpaper. Many of the people on SRP don't think very highly of the Arkansas stones. I started using them on my kitchen knives over 50 years ago. So I have a historical bias.

When I use my Arks as finishers I come off the 12K Nanawa to the Ark and then do what I call a lubricant progression. I hone on the stone dry until it starts to bog down then continue with water, then soapy water then oil, each time hone until the stone tells you it is done. This could well be hundreds of laps. Not very efficient. I do prefer the edge over that provided by the 12K.
A couple of pictures of typical edges. Attachment 299270
This is a 12k edges magnified about 800 times.Attachment 299271
This is a finished Ark edges at 800 power. I think the Ark has eliminated most of the deeper scratches and substituted many smaller scratches. Attachment 299272
Here is a 2K shot
I am also using a pasted strop and will be addind a diamond paste, .125 next week.

When I use my Arks as finishers I come off the 12K Nanawa to the Ark and then do what I call a lubricant progression. I hone on the stone dry until it starts to bog down then continue with water, then soapy water then oil, each time hone until the stone tells you it is done. This could well be hundreds of laps. Not very efficient. I do prefer the edge over that provided by the 12K

Boz-I think if you really dig around on here, you will find more love for Arkies than you think; there is quite the Arkie fan-club, in fact. It's funny how over the years you see different hones come and go in popularity in favor of whatever the cool kids are honing on at any given moment: Norton 4/8's, coticules, PHIGs, Zulu Greys, Eschers, the various purple slates, SG 20k's, JNats, etc.-all have had their moment. I think a lot of us just like playing with different naturals.

By the way, that is exactly my current default honing regimen: Nani 12 followed by the 4-stage Arkie progression; I really don't think you can go wrong with a well-done Arkie edge from a well-burnished stone.

Now if I can talk my buddy out of his Deep Rock coticule, I may have another obsessive rabbit hole to fall down!

rez,

this honing was pretty interesting. that razor has not seen a stone since last feb, and was stropped 10 laps on crox when I finished the edge, and then again a couple months ago. other than that is has just seen 10 laps on linen after a shave, and 20 on leather before a shave. it is one of my favorites, so I probably shaved with it 3 times a week or so since then. and I did use the scope while honing it. and I saw a bias towards the left side near the heel, like when I strop I put more pressure on the towards me stroke at the beginning of the stroke, as it was rounded off more than the rest of the edge, so ill have to look for that from now on.


im thinking that without the use of crox, I wont get near as much rounding or microbeveling of the edges, and that future touchups should go faster as I wont have to cut near as much steel to clean things up. is that about what you have seen?


boz,

those are some very nice pictures! what are you taking them with?

this is kinda my first go around with arks. I had some as a kid, but didn't know how to take care of them, and hated the way they would cut good when new, and then smooth out and quit cutting after just a couple dozen knives. I usually use a crystalon coarse fine and then finish with a dmt 325 for most all of my working knives as I like the aggressiveness of that edge, and want something that works quick and easy since I typically will wreck an edge long before I wear one down. most of my work is really rough on blades, and part of my job as a maker is to use my knives harder than most will ever dream of using them. so I tend to be brutal with my personal knives as they are all long term testers. so normal knives get used as gasket scrapers, prybars, cutting roofing shingles, tons of rope and cardboard, ect…. my kitchen knives get the same only just kitchen use for the most part, plus butchering most of our meat from hunting deer, antelope and elk, plus picking up lambs, pigs, and beef from a rancher friend of mine, just to see what they will take.

this last month or so, ive been picking up stones and sic, and spending a lot of time under the scope testing out different edges on both knives and razors, and posting quite a few sharpening and honing videos sharing what im finding. for this stone, im going to leave it as is, as its a combination stone and I only have one side of the black. I also picked up a natural whetstone company translucent black that I plan on lapping one side to 600 grit with sic, and the other burnishing, will do the same to a dans translucent as I get 2 sides with it also.

but this whole no crox thing is pretty exciting as it should really let me get to feel the different edges, without the crox blending them all together.

I don’t see the problem with using a pasted strop to get the edge you’re looking for. I find that is is easy for me to tune up an edge using diamond spray on hard felt and CrOx on balsa. If all I really am interested in is the best possible shave, that does it for me without the expense of high grit finishing stones.

This discussion about stones vs pasted strops and other strategies for keening up or making an edge more comfortable keeps coming around on the forums. Found this old thread, among many others: https://sharprazorpalace.com/beginne...ted-strop.html

It seems that the final consensus on each of these threads is that it comes down to personal preference. Personal preference and a connection to a simpler time are why many of us shave with a straight razor, so that conclusion is hardly surprising.

Great threads as of late, trying different things. I love Arkansas and Pike Washita stones for everything from knives to razors. There was quite the opinion just a few years back that Arkansas stones were only good for knives but many of us tried it anyway and found them to be pretty amazing. Wisdom from years past has its place as does experimenting with things that others have failed at. That’s how we move forward and stay interested (at least for me). So, a suggestion, get off your computer/tablet/phone and stop talking philosophically and go get your hones and try different things. It is fun whether you fail or succeed. Just use a cheap razor and experiment.
Pastes used to be taboo. “Stones only.” “Pastes will ruin your edge” and “blah blah blah.” There is truth to all of this (except the blah blah blah part) but it’s not all true. Some will put lead on their strops and say they don’t use pastes. Some admit to it and some don’t. I rarely use pastes anymore but I still do from time to time. It’s another tool and it kept me in the game for a long while giving excellent shaves and it was fun. Pastes can be an inexpensive alternative to some expensive high grit synthetics.
One reason I don’t post so much here anymore is because I am busy honing and shaving and trying different things. Someday I will post about these little experiments but now I have to go shower and shave.

Since 2010 there is a lot more selection in paste/sprays. Diamonds and CBN available in Nano grits at affordable prices, offer a lot more than a 30k Chrome Oxide edge.

The slight convexing of a bevel is negligible and a good thing, making for a stronger edge. It can easily be reversed in but a few laps on a 12k for a touch up if needed.

A good Ark edge is a unique shaving edge, stropping on Chrome Oxide removes the keenness of an Ark edge, so should only be stropped on leather and linen, or not, your choice.

The quality of an Ark edge is determined by the stone prep of the Ark face and technique. There is much written on the Ark progression and stone prep. They are a unique stone and can provide a unique shaving edge. The benefit of a single Ark stone is the ability to create two unique stone faces for an Ark finish progression. So, it is not only the quality of the stone, Vintage vs New quarry, stone face prep can dramatically alter the performance and can be tailored for shaving preference.

Boz, I think you can improve your 12k edge a bit more, which will give you a much straighter edge. The stria should be much more uniform off a 12k and go all the way to the edge, it does not look like you are honing fully to the edge. Wipe the bevel with a dry paper towel, to remove the horizontal slurry stains before photographing the edge for a clearer pic.

Try to photograph the same spot, mark the blade face with a sharpie dot or line for registration. Then pick a unique stria as a landmark to compare improvement.

This is some good info. An Ark edge is a personnal thing. Some enjoy it and others dont. Ive learned using the progression of lubricants from thin to thick has made my Arkie edges better but still not as keen as i like. Yet. But Im in no way done playing with my Trans Ark.

As far az crox and diamond sprays my opnion is... It dont matter what stone you finished on. If you use crox after than its a crox edge. If you honed to 12k then went to diamond spray then its a diamond spray edge. These things do round the edge and make for a stronger edge but so does the clean strop. But just not as agressively. None of these other ways beyond a stone is wrong. Ive always wanted to stay with just the stones but ivd been playing with other options in the last few months and have found the diamond sprays to do a fine job in touching up the final edge to a pinch better of an edge. We all know that at this point in honing we are splitting split hairs. Its realy tough to feel this difference at this fine of honing, but its so much fun to do.

So keep on playing and trying new things. Comment on what you find and what the perfect edge is for you. Its what makes this community such a fun group to read and learn from.

Joe: the first photo was taken with a Veho VMS-0004 USB Microscope, very similar to the unit Gasman was using at the meetup, the other two were taken with an Amscope 40-100-400 with a 200X camera.

ScoutHikerDad: Do you remember who mentioned the Ark progression on this list? I am using a different name for it but don't want to imply that it was my idea.

Euclid440 Lots of good ideas. I am beginning to think that I need to stay on all the stones a little bit longer. I will be testing that soon.

Boz-I remember reading about some version of it on a thread not too long ago, and just started playing around with my own take on it I guess. Others do variations of it. Personally, I am not enough of an expert on any stone to say that I have THE definitive take on it, but the "thin to thick" regimen is giving me my best edges ever. But there's always that last little bit of perfection one can chase with any stone, right?

That said, I also get bored easily, and have pretty much zero attention span (which is why I don't get mad at my day-dreamers in class). I'll get another JNAT or some other stone, and wring all I can get from it, and then keep playing and experimenting. That's most of the fun of honing for me

shaved again this morning with the ark edge, and though I was trying out a new soap that I didn't really care for, things went really well. after the 10 laps on linen after yesterdays shave to dry the edge out, and the 20 laps on English bridle right before the shave, the edge has already settled down and feels really good. I think im going to keep that black ark the way it is, and then lap and burnish one side of my dans translucent so it will be a small set, soft, black, trans, lapped and burnished trans all in matching 8x2"s.


I also lapped both sides of a new natural whetstone co 10x3x1/2" trans black today to 600 grit, and then took one side to 800 paper, and then burnished it with a big chopper and a smaller trans ark pocketstone. did a quick test with a noname vintage shefield and it looks like we will get along pretty well. the 600 grit lapped side is just aggressive enough to bring up a tiny burr and then smooth it out, and the burnished side cleans it up with straight mineral spirits and then finishes with straight mineral oil, a quick palm strop and it was dropping arm hairs easily with the edge 1/2" above the skin. total time from dull to finish was about 10 minutes. found a new stroke that I like which is kind of like reverse stone stropping with the stone sideways on the edge of the bench that really lets me rack up the strokes, while maintaining good control and staying smooth.


and wouldn't you know it, but right after I got the trans black all finished up and ready, and was getting excited to try it out, but I get a call and I have a friend coming over on Thursday to hone her first razor ever on video, heck I don't know if she has ever even picked up a straight. and so I need to grow some whiskers for the on camera shave after she is done. so it will have to wait till Friday.

I don't think there is anything wrong with pastes and sprays either, and will continue to use them. but its cool to have another honing progression.

after just a couple shaves with the arks, I do like them a lot. I also like the oil as it is handy to wipe the scales and pivot area with after I am done honing as most of my scales are the one piece style like what livi makes, and are made from wood, so they can use some mineral oil now and then anyways.

boz, I have one of those little veho's, and for the money they are a great little scope. I think gasmans must have some upgrades in it, as his pictures are much clearer than what mine takes.

the only problem with the arks is that I am now thinking of going stone hunting. we have a ton of rock here in Wyoming, and I hunt and fish a lot. and with the sic powder and being able to lap stones, and I have a diamond wheel for my 4" angle grinder, and a wet tile saw already to cut them, it may get into yet another hobby :} in fact im really thinking about heading to a spot I hunt deer in that has an old abandoned mine and some rocks that I remember looking a lot like a white hard ark and having a looksee. I found it on the web and it was a mine for fieldspar, but im not sure if I can get to it this late in the season, so it may have to wait till early summer as they close the roads down in the spring to prevent damage to the roads there.

If you like the Arkansas line, there also is a so-called Canadian novaculite quarried in Alberta.

Joe some reading for you
https://www.motherearthnews.com/natu...e-zmaz83mazraw
https://books.google.com/books?id=y7...0hones&f=false
I have though about looking around Colorado for stones but I just don't have the energy anymore.

I too looked into Colorado for some Rocks to cut, but I found the only place to find a decent stone was around Crested Butte. A place called Wetstone Mountain. I bet there is some decent rock but I just dont go that way unless I'm in the big truck.

If you find a Rock and cut it up Joe, I'd ba happy to help ya test one. Hook me up man!

A female honing? Hope shes a looker. I will be waiting for that vid.

BTW, No upgrades on my Scope. It has no name on it, but I looked it up on Amazon where I bought it. Its a
eBoTrade 5MP 20-300X USB Digital Microscope Magnifier Video Camera with 8-LED, Base Stand,Software for Windows, Mac, Vista

But I see its been replaced with something else. So mine if no long available.

thanks boz, ill read those tomorrow!

gasman,

if I find any good ones, ill be sure to bring them to the next meet. just ordered a rock hammer, and a king 1/6 to play with, maybe Ashley will help me break it in on the video.

I didn't mean that you had upgraded your scope, but that it was nicer than the one that I had. kind of like if you buy a top of the line laptop today, in 6 months its just a normal one, and in 2 years its a dinosaur as fast as tech moves. but I think mine only has a 2mp, and yours is a 5, so that would explain it.

Ashely is a looker I think. even more so as she is a great person, very strong and with lots of talent. her husband is a good friend also and she has 2 pretty cool kids. here is the first vid we shot last week I think, where she sharpened her first knife ever. ive been looking for someone to shoot that video for awhile as I hope it will give folks the confidence to start sharpening, as you can tell that she has never done it, and if she can, then anyone with enough coordination to brush their teeth can. now we hope to do the same thing with honing a razor :}

https://youtu.be/vyr-4N8k3pU

Nice vids Joe. I watched them both. Maybe I now need to buy some stones for my pocket knifes and kitchen knifes. I only use the DMT right now. It gets the job done. Thanks for posting them.

gasman,

thanks!

the dmt's are great stones, for knives about the only thing you would need other than them would just be a coarse shaping stone for setting edges and repairing damage. the reason I pushed the Norton coarse fine in that video so much is because its really tough to beat that kind of sharpening power for the $20-$30 that they cost.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScoutHikerDad

When I use my Arks as finishers I come off the 12K Nanawa to the Ark and then do what I call a lubricant progression. I hone on the stone dry until it starts to bog down then continue with water, then soapy water then oil, each time hone until the stone tells you it is done. This could well be hundreds of laps. Not very efficient. I do prefer the edge over that provided by the 12K

Boz-I think if you really dig around on here, you will find more love for Arkies than you think; there is quite the Arkie fan-club, in fact. It's funny how over the years you see different hones come and go in popularity in favor of whatever the cool kids are honing on at any given moment: Norton 4/8's, coticules, PHIGs, Zulu Greys, Eschers, the various purple slates, SG 20k's, JNats, etc.-all have had their moment. I think a lot of us just like playing with different naturals.

By the way, that is exactly my current default honing regimen: Nani 12 followed by the 4-stage Arkie progression; I really don't think you can go wrong with a well-done Arkie edge from a well-burnished stone.

Now if I can talk my buddy out of his Deep Rock coticule, I may have another obsessive rabbit hole to fall down!

---

Mention Arkies and we tend to pop out of the woodwork.

I've got a good number of the hones mentioned above. Jnat, coticule, slates, sundry barber hones, a PHIG and other Chinese stones, Norton 1, 4, and 8k hones, Shaptons...I've shaved directly (zero stropping) off every stone in my collection. Yes, this includes the Norton 1k and Shapton 2k. Each creates it's own unique edge. And that's something that's much harder to discern if you're chasing the edge with paste. As you discovered OP, pastes are not a necessity but some do prefer it. Nothing wrong with it, but the fact that it masks the edge created by a given stone is a big part of why I don't use them often.

Anyway, of them all Arkansas stones are probably my favorite. Using Norton hones for example, I use those almost exclusively for razors, and maybe knives if I feel like being delicate. But if I were to slap a chisel on them like I do my Arkansas stones, it would put a gouge in them with a quickness and scratch up the surface to the point I wouldn't take a razor to the hone without re-flattening the stone and washing a solid chunk of it down the drain every other use. Arkies are so hard that is NOT a concern. Water, soap, oil, knives, chisels, razors, just a plain stone or with slurry so you can use a Black or translucent from bevel set to final polish...the only downside is not having enough time in the day (or dull blades that need a touch up) to play with it all.

:beer1:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marshal

Mention Arkies and we tend to pop out of the woodwork.

I've got a good number of the hones mentioned above. Jnat, coticule, slates, sundry barber hones, a PHIG and other Chinese stones, Norton 1, 4, and 8k hones, Shaptons...I've shaved directly (zero stropping) off every stone in my collection. Yes, this includes the Norton 1k and Shapton 2k. Each creates it's own unique edge. And that's something that's much harder to discern if you're chasing the edge with paste. As you discovered OP, pastes are not a necessity but some do prefer it. Nothing wrong with it, but the fact that it masks the edge created by a given stone is a big part of why I don't use them often.

Anyway, of them all Arkansas stones are probably my favorite. Using Norton hones for example, I use those almost exclusively for razors, and maybe knives if I feel like being delicate. But if I were to slap a chisel on them like I do my Arkansas stones, it would put a gouge in them with a quickness and scratch up the surface to the point I wouldn't take a razor to the hone without re-flattening the stone and washing a solid chunk of it down the drain every other use. Arkies are so hard that is NOT a concern. Water, soap, oil, knives, chisels, razors, just a plain stone or with slurry so you can use a Black or translucent from bevel set to final polish...the only downside is not having enough time in the day (or dull blades that need a touch up) to play with it all.

:beer1:

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Good to see your post!! 100%