Should I be worried about uneven spine wear?

Hi all,

I have been intermittently using a Dovo Bismarck that I bought new some many years ago and honed it about 6-7 times (in about 5 years) on Naniwa SS progression 1k, 5k, 8k and 12k.

I recently reflamed this hobby and started using it regularly (every 3-4 days shave) and while inspecting it, I noticed a somewhat uneven spine wear close to the heel area on both sides. I don't recall if this is how the factory sent it to me or if I have put uneven wear on the spine due to wrongly applied pressure/honing technique, but I want to try to fix it if possible. The edge shaves nicely and it pops arm hair midway along the entire length. It also passed hanging hair test with and against the hair root along entire edge length.

Nonetheless, it bothers me mainly for 2 reasons:
- further honing will emphasise the unevenness even more and I am afraid that at some point will create a smile on the heel area
- my OCD can't stop thinking that it looks (and it will look in the future) unclean

I have created a hi res album on imgur that can be accessed following below link:
https://imgur.com/a/NurUMQX

My honing technique is circles on 1k (as Lynn shows in his videos) to set the bevel, and laps going further on higher grit stones.

So, what do you think? Is this an issue or I am obsessing over it without a real reason? How can the spine wear be fixed/evened out? I was thinking to hone it on 1k applying pressure on the spine area where the low spot is and/or apply some tape on the edge while doing this to avoid unnecessary edge wear.

Let me know your thoughts.

Not an expert at honing so for what it is worth. My guess is that the spine width varies a bit due to slightly uneven grinding at the factory resulting in a little uneven hone wear. I doubt there is much you can do about it except to have the blade reground.

It is shaving well, so I'd just tape the spine when honing to prevent further spine wear and live with if you can. I'm sure others with more knowledge will be along shortly with a better answer.

Bob

I don't think it looks that bad. It could be from an unevenness in the grind or some uneven pressure. I wouldn't try and fix it as it would just cause unnecessary hone wear. If your concerned about it getting worse just use tape from now on. It's just cosmetic.JMHO

what these guys said, I wouldn't worry about it. I don't think any razor is going to have perfect honewear. I personally wouldn't use tape because I am lazy/would just get new razor if it ever impacted your shaves. Although tape is perfectly fine to use and will keep the spine from changing anymore. If you do use tape though just know that your bevel will be a tad bit smaller but that is fine as well

Forgot to mention I did not use tape on this blade.

The uneven wear is no that bad. I have seen much worse. Before I start I check both sides with a straight edge. If not bad I use one layer of tape to avoid more hone wear. If excessive I fill in low spots with tape and cover entire spine with one layer so edges don't catch on hone.


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Originally Posted by newber

Forgot to mention I did not use tape on this blade.

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No need to have mentioned it as the hone wear makes it self evident. That said, by using tape now when honing it will not allow any additional wear to occur.

Bob

This means, I will have to reset the bevel, as the tape will create a new angle on the bevel, right? So back to 1k stone. As well as all my future touch ups on higher grit stones, will need to be done with tape on the spine.

What if I don't want to use tape for the life of this blade, how can I even out the spine? Is the effort and extra removed metal worth it?

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Originally Posted by bouschie

... Before I start I check both sides with a straight edge. If not bad I use one layer of tape to avoid more hone wear.

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Not very clear on this part, can you elaborate please?

Uneven hone wear generally occurs when you are setting the bevel on a blade that is not perfectly ground in the first place. Bevel setting is done using lower grit hones that have metal removal capability. However, unless the blade is damaged, you usually only have to set the bevel one time. Subsequent honings should not require the use of lower grit hones, so very little metal is removed.

I refresh my edges frequently, but try to do so using finishing hones 12K grit and higher. Such hones do more polishing than they do sharpening. If that does not restore the edge of my blade, I might drop back to an 5K-8K hone, but I would never go back to 1K unless the blade is in really bad condition.

If you are only honing your blades once a year, unless you are going back and setting the bevel each time, they should last a very long time without excessive hone wear. However, if you are concerned about such wear, use a single layer of tape on the blade.

In talking with a couple of guys that forge custom razors, they indicated that using tape is a good idea due to the difference in hardness of the edge vs the spine of the razor. During the tempering process, the entire blade is heated to a uniform temper, but during the quenching process, the edge of the blade cools much quicker than the spine causing the edge to be harder. Thus, when honing without tape, you will remove more metal from the spine than the edge due to the difference in hardness.

Bouche has restored many vintage razors, so he is an expert in hone wear. He always uses tape when honing the blades, sometime using multiple layers of tape, especially on wedge and near wedge blades.

Great answers gents!
If you use tape then yes, you will need to use tape from that point forward if you want to keep the perfect edge. Tape is a good thing. I use it on my collection and thats over 100 razors. I also keep a log on all the info of my razors so i know what to do when i need to go back to the stones.

As was said, unless you damage the edge by hitting the counter of fauset, you should never need to go back to a 1k stone. Honing can be fun but you can over do it. Thd more time on a rough stone will cause a short life for your razor. Spine wear or uneven bevels are not important. Only looks bad and you are the only one who will notice it. If it shaves well then live with it. DO NOT try to grind the spine so the wear is the same across the entire spine and will give an even bevel! That is a fix only hacks do and it messes up the geometry of a razor.

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Originally Posted by newber

This means, I will have to reset the bevel, as the tape will create a new angle on the bevel, right? So back to 1k stone. As well as all my future touch ups on higher grit stones, will need to be done with tape on the spine.

What if I don't want to use tape for the life of this blade, how can I even out the spine? Is the effort and extra removed metal worth it?

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Do not attempt to even out hone wear, it's futile and serves no purpose other than cosmetic. (that is when your shaving edge is making good contact on the stones over its' entirety, that the heel and toe are sometimes lacking is normal, often needs a bit of honing gymnastics)

Would you need to reset the bevel? Well, not exactly. A popular method in the Coticule forum a while back was set a bevel etc., THEN add one layer of tape and FINISH on the one layer of tape. It works, and makes you feel purely the finisher at work in your edge.

Your touchups will indeed have to be done on tape until your taped secondary bevel becomes too thin and need a quick bevel reset without tape, etc.

There's nothing wrong with (reasonable) uneven wear, and you don't need to use tape by any means

Everybody has their method, some almost exclusively use tape, some don't.
I personally do not like honing with tape and use it only on razors with geometry issues where one or more layers of tape are necessary to create a good shaving bevel angle.

PS some of my best shavers are razors with big/wide bevels, so there's always that; I wouldn't worry too much about cosmetics when it's mostly about it being a functional item

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Originally Posted by newber

This means, I will have to reset the bevel, as the tape will create a new angle on the bevel, right? So back to 1k stone. As well as all my future touch ups on higher grit stones, will need to be done with tape on the spine.

What if I don't want to use tape for the life of this blade, how can I even out the spine? Is the effort and extra removed metal worth it?



Not very clear on this part, can you elaborate please?

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Yes, if you use tape you will have to reset the bevel. One layer of tape does not make a huge difference so you may get away with dropping only one level from your finishing one to reset the bevel. Yes. you will need to use tape every time you go to the hones from then on. All using a single layer of tape will do is keep the spine wear from getting worse.

You can have the blade reground if you do not want to use tape. If you keep grinding on the spine when honing the wear will only get worse.

There is no easy fix to cure the uneven spine wear. You really have limited choices.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

If you keep grinding on the spine when honing the wear will only get worse.

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Very valid point! Technique and experience also matter, when I wasn't used to honing razors I was way too heavy handed and put much more wear on the spine than I should have

It's something you'll learn over time

If you add tape without resetting the bevel, you will make a micro bevel. This (again as was stated above) is something Coti users often do. Nothing wrong with micro bevels. But for a complete one angled bevel yoh will need to go back in stones. Not to the 1k as it wont take a lot to change. Id go back to a 5k and see if thats enough.

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Originally Posted by newber

This means, I will have to reset the bevel, as the tape will create a new angle on the bevel, right? So back to 1k stone. As well as all my future touch ups on higher grit stones, will need to be done with tape on the spine.

What if I don't want to use tape for the life of this blade, how can I even out the spine? Is the effort and extra removed metal worth it?

Not very clear on this part, can you elaborate please?

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Perhaps this video by a man who has thousands of honings for others under his belt will be of some help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMchDtXzUO4&t=649s

All good points thus far.
Looking at the bevel it looks pretty even, the toe and heel are slightly larger but id say that would mirror the grinding. To be honest from what I can see on my phone it looks absolutely fine as is. I would however use tape from now on just to protect the gold wash, as said use one layer and reset.
One thing id mention about wear of a razor is that I have a experiment razor that ive set the bevel on a few times with and without tape and tried all number of finishers on and it still looks absolutely fine with minimal wear.

As a side note if uneven bevels upset your OCD dont look into the new Thiers Issards!!

One thing, that may be because of a slightly uneven grind or because your technique, and you eluded to it in your original post is, pressure. When I started honing I used more pressure on the heal side of the razor. The heal also spent more Tim on the hone than the toe and middle of the blade. It results in more metal removal.

I would just drop back a hone in you progression, concentrate more on nice even strokes and carry on. If you wanted to you could spend a little extra time on the toe and middle of the blade and at some point, many refreshes down the line the hone wear may even out.

Tape versus no tape is preference of the user, and can be used to correct some geometry issues. I prefer tape, but have honed razors without.

I don’t see your hone wear on that particular razor as much more than cosmetic, though it may tell a tale of uneven or inconsistent strokes on your end

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Originally Posted by newber

Nonetheless, it bothers me mainly for 2 reasons:
- further honing will emphasise the unevenness even more and I am afraid that at some point will create a smile on the heel area
- my OCD can't stop thinking that it looks (and it will look in the future) unclean

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Really that razor looks quite ok.
The only thing I would do is stay off the 1k unless the edge needs it, ie damage or rust.

A razor should be honed towards a smile as the opposite is a frown & we don't want that. You may just need to work a little more on the toe over time.

Tape will only change the angle by 1º so it won't do much for edge wear. I wouldn't worry about the spine being softer than the edge as the edge is much thinner. With correct pressure & torque the spine will not wear excessively.
The tang is another thick part of the razor & yet I've seen tangs test as high as 62HRC on vintage razors.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Really that razor looks quite ok.
The only thing I would do is stay off the 1k unless the edge needs it, ie damage or rust.

A razor should be honed towards a smile as the opposite is a frown & we don't want that. You may just need to work a little more on the toe over time.

Tape will only change the angle by 1º so it won't do much for edge wear. I wouldn't worry about the spine being softer than the edge as the edge is much thinner. With correct pressure & torque the spine will not wear excessively.
The tang is another thick part of the razor & yet I've seen tangs test as high as 62HRC on vintage razors.

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+1.........

Thank you all for your answers and clarifications. Really appreciate your inputs.

LE: another point I would like to clarify is that I don't have a problem with spine wear, but rather with uneven spine wear. This is why I have not used tape.

Uneven spine wear and bevels are normal. No razors are perfectly ground, and the exact same width and thickness. Some are close, yours is. Do not attempt to “fix” the spine, you already have. The spine, bevel and edge are now in perfect alignment, in the same plane.

Adding tape will increase the angle and cut a new microscopically steeper bevel, depending on how many laps you do and the grit of the stone, it can cut a micro or whole new bevel. Modern synthetic stones are much more aggressive that folks think. Here is an old thread on chip removal and honing on a 12k super stone in about 200 laps, (12K Chip Removal/Bevel Setting) Re-setting a taped bevel is a fraction of removing a chip, as Glen demonstrated.

Try the Kapton tape on eBay, about $10 a roll, it is thin and tough, if you want the spine to remain where it is now.

“LE: another point I would like to clarify is that I don't have a problem with spine wear, but rather with uneven spine wear. This is why I have not used tape.”

I do not understand this comment, if you used tape you would have no, spine wear.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

“LE: another point I would like to clarify is that I don't have a problem with spine wear, but rather with uneven spine wear. This is why I have not used tape.”

I do not understand this comment, if you used tape you would have no, spine wear.

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What I meant is that I do not care as much about the spine wear, but I care about the unevenness of the wear.

Anyway, you guys made it clear it is not an issue and I will continue to refresh on 8k/12k as usual.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Some are close, yours is.

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Did you meant, yours isn't?

“Did you meant, yours isn't?”

No, yours is.

I hone a lot of new Dovo and TI razors and get to see what new “Factory” razors and edges are like these days. I also do a lot of vintage razors.

Trust me, your razor is very well ground and very straight. It is all cosmetic and a product of the value of time. All can be made to shave well, though.

Don’t obsess about the spine being alittle wonky, this wonky spine may eventually been seen in the bevel and it’s a direct reflection of the spine so if it bothers you then you could use some then tape like Kapton tape and it’s very thin and wears extremely well, also just some food for thought it’s not necessary to go to the 1K every time as a 1K can kill a razors life, once a bevel is set correctly it should last a very long time unless damaged by bumping the edge so try using one stone down from your finisher when the edge drops off, for me when the Strop fails I go to a JNAT with midgrit tomo then final tomo and if that fails then I go back to the 12 or 8k range and very seldomly 4

I have see to many blades come to me that have been ruined by a 1K

I have not went back to 1k since I have set the bevel some many years ago, although I have recently restarted to use the razor regularly. I refreshed it (maybe) 3 months ago on 12k, around 40 circles each side and 50 something laps. The first shave was outstanding, but subsequent ones were not as good as the time passed. I strop on a Dovo leather, 100 laps on felt and 100 on leather before each shave, but to be honest I don't think this strop is that good.

I will go back to SRD modular paddle at some point.

That razor looks fine. When you refresh you may want to reduce the number of laps you do. Try it with just 20 or 40 and see if that brings the edge back for you.

Dovo strops are nice. They are split side so they sometimes need refreshing with the yellow tube paste or Dovo leather balm. You can tell the strop needs this if after stropping it looks like there is dust on the razor, especially in the concave portion. You may also want to reduce the amount of stropping you do pre shave and maybe just use leather. It's a YMMV thing but 200 total seems like a lot.

Just my opinion, but 25 strops on fabric and 50 on leather works perfectly for me.
Seems like many assume stropping is no brainer. WRONG, at least for me. It took me almost a year to learn the flip and the draw. Agreed, I am a very slow learner. But 100xs on fabric and leather is beyond usefulness.

“I refreshed it (maybe) 3 months ago on 12k, around 40 circles each side and 50 something laps. The first shave was outstanding, but subsequent ones were not as good as the time passed. I strop on a Dovo leather, 100 laps on felt and 100 on leather before each shave, but to be honest I don't think this strop is that good.”

Compare pre-stropped bevels to post. If you are seeing deep random stria post stropping, your strop is contaminated and probably chipping the edge or weakening the edge and heavy stropping is causing chipping.

What makes you suspect an issue with the strop?

IME the Dovo strops are very good in all honesty, I would buy one and use it exclusively without any issues and be happy with my shaves